Hello...

haha. morning.

morning

g'morning

Bore da

Quick reminder, if you are in or around London tonight we have a Clojure coding dojo at SkillsMatter at 6:30pm https://skillsmatter.com/meetups/8788-clojurebridge-alumni-coding-dojo Although it's targeting ClojureBridge Alumni, all are welcome. Sign up using the link if you plan on attending. Thanks

morning all

Is it the standard clojure dojo format tonight @agile_geek?

Yes although I'm open to suggestions if people want to do something different. I am not the King of Dojo's! That's @otfrom

Hello All 🙂

awesome political drama unfolding today !

Indeed! Time to write to politicians and beg them to resist the temptation to set fire to the country for shits and giggles

I love that "leavers' want UK Parliament to be sovereign, except when it doesn't suit them!

Maybe they thought we had an emperor in the UK Parliament

Isn't that what the USA have now....High Wizard and Orange Social Media Guru?

Haha some great nicknames here 🙂

some 'leavers' @agile_geek - i'm a leaver, though i favour paying to remain part of the single-market, i am happy with free movement, and i'm happy with the supreme court ruling

@mccraigmccraig sure. I was generalising as usual! Given that position what was the deciding factor to leave (given I voted to remain mainly for those reasons listed in your reply)

@agile_geek i think the EU is doomed and that it would be better for britain long-term to be able to negotiate trade deals outside the EU, as well as with the EU

Fair point

i think it is doomed because the euro is causing wealth to drain from the weaker economies to the stronger economies and without any reverse flow it will self destruct... and the EU governing bodies have shown zero ability to even publicly recognise the problem, never mind address it

I tend to agree but not sure I agree that it's unsalvageable and I felt we were better helping than jumping ship.

I also feared the alternative more than the fall of the EU

i took your position until greece was given a beating - that changed my mind

👋

👋 @gjnoonan

Morning Chris, how's tricks

Alright. Busy at current client and working on a getting a consultancy role lined up....but I've been working on it for 16 months now!

agile_geek Nick Tollervey is King of the (London 2nd Alternative) Dojo style

Hopefully it’s worth the wait 🙂

mccraigmccraig what was done to Greece was horrible. The EU needs to figure out a reasonable fiscal policy to be able to cope w/monetary union (same as happens in the US, but hopefully better)

@otfrom never met Nick...although I've communicated via Twitter

tho I'm not sure why we'd want to be covered by trade courts similar to the WTO w/o the ability to affect the legislation that goes into them, which is why I am a remainer (along w/being very pro freedom of movement)

I look at NAFTA, TPP, WTO, WIPO and think that the EU is a much better model

and freedom of movement is a massive part of what makes that work

I'd like to see more aggressive union negotiation to deal with some abuses of free movement of services, but the UK is the one that usually holds that back

@otfrom totally agree on fiscal policy - but i can't see a turnaround from the greek treatment to a reasonable policy happening

tho i may be wrong. i am bad at prediction

mccraigmccraig that turnaround is probably more likely now as it was usually the UK stopping any more interventionist fiscal policy (or indeed even refusing various bits of fiscal aid for things in the UK when offered)

given a different environment on immigration/freedom of movement (which both the main remain and leave campaigns had issues with) I might have been more tempted to vote Leave b/c of Greece and the general neo-liberal set up of the EU. It just didn't feel like a safe choice for me for friends given the atmosphere around things.

but anyway...

clojure is lovely isn't it?

mccraigmccraig I still ❤️ you and understand why you voted the way you did :hugging_face:

i can totally understand your position @otfrom ... from my side, i can see the uk sentiment on immigration changing (it has clearly been somewhat different in the past). i can't see the eu changing much though - every time i try to understand its power structure i get a headache

"The Council of the European Union must not be confused with the European Council (see above), nor with the Council of Europe"

@otfrom +1 ❤️

there are a number of different organisations. Many of which are covered by completely different treaties

I'm glad that the ECHR is completely separate

and yeah, the UK attitude towards immigration and immigrants changed quite a bit while I was away from 2002 - 2008. Not quite sure what happened there as it looked like things were heading in a much more open direction

but a lot of things changed while I was away

I wonder what that correlation implies?

@otfrom maybe you shouldn't have gone back to US and left us to fend for ourselves....look what has happened while you've been away from USA now!

if I can ruin things, I'm happy to be used as a weapon

is it OK that I'm swooning as I got a like from Adrian Colyer?

(this looks like an interesting paper btw https://blog.acolyer.org/2017/01/24/data-provenance-at-internet-scale-architecture-experiences-and-the-road-ahead/)

I'm of the opinion that functional programming works well with this. 🙂

I’ve got a feeling I’m doing something wrong. I’m using Stuart Sierra’s Component library, and then using protocols implemented by records to define various bits of behaviour. This lets me swap out bits at test time. So for some behaviour ‘Foo’ I have a ‘Foo’ record and a ‘FooProtocol’, and it all feels very OO, and like I’m writing Java again and creating an interface just to mock it out at test time. Other than writing a little more code than I would like to, I’m not hitting any major problems with it - but it feels not quite right. Would anyone care to venture an opinion?

@peterwestmacott it's highly worth reading the literature on the discussions between yogthos & weavejester on this stuff. But mostly, your FooProtocol should only be applied to things that hit an external service. Most things should take something like foo as a parameter. It really depends on what you're doing.

"But mostly, your FooProtocol should only be applied to things that hit an external service” - yep that’s my main criteria for applying this pattern

you wouldn’t happen to have a link handy for said discussions…?

@peterwestmacott I think you're applying this where it is appropriate then.

There's a number of them, tolitius also jumped in for a long time too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/41p73n/contrasting_component_and_mount/ is a good starting point

https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/5gvhi2/integrant_an_alternative_to_component_and_mount/

thanks muchly!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/42nkkw/how_i_use_component/

I just realised, I have all these in a firefox group.

I hadn’t realised there was so much Clojure discussion on reddit...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/5e7w0p/no_ceremony/ this too

I should write these up into a document at some point, absolutely full of gems.

yes please!

You have already a lot there, but I’ll throw in my thoughts as well https://github.com/reborg/scccw/blob/master/COMPONENTS.md

But essentially: no passing components into others, no forcing components to implement protocols, reuse by copy-paste. Started doing this couple of years ago, I never looked back.

i didn't want to force components to implement any protocols, and wanted something async-friendly and composable, so i created my own little object-system manager - https://github.com/employeerepublic/deferst . components can be anything whatsoever, get created with vanilla fns and have optional destructor fns. systems o components are wired up with a pure-data specification and one system can be used as the basis of another system

well I’m glad I asked, thank you kind people!

just add another one to the mix: https://github.com/weavejester/integrant

From the integrant readme: "The architecture of the application is defined through data, rather than code” - I guess homoiconicity has its limits!

have you seen Zach Tellman’s ABC talk peterwestmacott ?

It has some good discussions about code as data and data as code and the spectrum between them

does it have a title?

if it is called “ABC talk” then my search skills have failed me

Always Be Composing

I haven’t seen it. But I will.

thanks

Yah, my clojure.spec talk went well at WM-JUG. Loads of questions and interest in generative testing. Lots of arghs at the parens. A few oohs at the repl.

One question asked was whether core team would make the predicates more english like. I explained that the concise lisp expression are more powerful and reasonable than English for those that can read it. Wrong answer for audience. Correct answer might be to wrap the complex (to newb lispers) predicates in functions with good names. I will post that reply as errata as a comment :-)