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#clojure-uk
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2019-12-05
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dharrigan09:12:58

Just playing around with the cognitect aws library - man, a joy to use 🙂

dharrigan09:12:22

I have a utility to write, to slurp files from a s3 bucket and do some processing on them

dominicm09:12:21

Did they add streaming support yet? That's my only real hold up on it as a lib.

Samuel10:12:38

Morning all

dominicm11:12:39

I've just received two letters from political parties who I definitely didn't give my address to. I'm not happy.

dominicm11:12:46

Actually. Someone has done some data analysis and decided I'm a Conservative voter and my partner is a Labour voter.

dominicm11:12:16

Are political parties gdpr exempt?

dominicm11:12:15

I have to fucking opt out for every entity involved with a party? Are you kidding me.

dominicm11:12:18

Just leave me alone!

dominicm11:12:02

I'm also upset that they get privileged register access, as I explicitly state that I'm not to be sold to other people.

dominicm11:12:12

In future I should clearly just not register

Ben Hammond11:12:03

i did get a gdpr response from the brexit party in the end

Ben Hammond11:12:12

essentially they said

Ben Hammond11:12:25

> Electoral Roll - you're fair game

Ben Hammond11:12:53

usually fliers are not addressed; so it is creepy when they are

Ben Hammond11:12:54

but the important thing is to place your vote

Ben Hammond11:12:01

and not be invisible

dominicm12:12:29

Who am I going to vote for. They both do the same thing.

Ben Hammond12:12:06

er, there should be more that 2

dominicm12:12:22

There's only two parties in the UK.

dominicm12:12:39

I'd love to vote for the pirate party, but they're not here.

Ben Hammond12:12:56

well, historically the Conservatives are horrible people, but good with money

Ben Hammond12:12:13

and Labour are nice people but terrible with money

dominicm12:12:33

I find the simplification funny, and I like it.

Ben Hammond12:12:53

but at the moment the Conservatives are horrible people who are bad with money and will ruin the country whilst remaianing horrible

Ben Hammond12:12:35

and Labour Leadership are so horrible that they've pushed all their good people into backbenching; otherwise they would be walking this

Ben Hammond12:12:16

which leaves you with the LibDems or the Greens

dominicm12:12:39

Corbyn seems nice.

yogidevbear12:12:43

I thought you were Scottish Ben. What happened to mentioning the SNP?

Ben Hammond12:12:45

LibDem are still being punished for having the temerity to go into power 9 years ago

Ben Hammond12:12:31

I don't think they are standing in dominic's constituency

Ben Hammond12:12:11

Corbyn seems a bit rubbish at handling dissentt

Ben Hammond12:12:34

the politics around the anti-semitism row have been handled badly

Ben Hammond12:12:45

whic makes him a bad politician

Ben Hammond12:12:00

whatever you think of him people

thomas12:12:01

Greetings from the Eurostar 🚅

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Ben Hammond12:12:32

people I've worked with and respect find Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party to be very scary

Ben Hammond12:12:42

and that's a fundamental problem

dominicm12:12:47

When I looked at it, it seemed like he was on the right side. But I also don't regularly follow the news. I just investigate claims like "corbyn hates Jews" occasionally.

Ben Hammond12:12:42

ideally no-one would get a majority, and they'll have to discuss issues like grownup and learn to get along with each other

Ben Hammond12:12:54

what are the chances of that happening

dominicm12:12:09

Isn't that the current situation?

Ben Hammond12:12:44

they're still working on the grown-ups bit

dominicm12:12:02

Yeah. That's what I mean :)

mccraigmccraig12:12:53

surely one's vote in this election should be guided only by the brexit outcome you deem desirable - everything else is changeable at the next election, but the brexit outcomes (other than revoke a50) are irreversible

Ben Hammond12:12:20

it would take ~20 years or so to reverse

Ben Hammond12:12:41

and we wouldn't be on nearly such a cushy deal from the EU

dominicm12:12:17

I've given up on brexit. I just want it over so we can start enjoying or hating the effects.

Ben Hammond12:12:30

but it won't be over

Ben Hammond12:12:45

it would be just the beginning

Ben Hammond12:12:14

of UK learning how to negotiate trade deals with the major trading blocks

Ben Hammond12:12:26

as a medium-sized country

Ben Hammond12:12:50

the trouble with globalism is that if everyone else stays at the party

Ben Hammond12:12:04

and you're the only one who has left

Ben Hammond12:12:25

that does not put you in a strong position

Ben Hammond12:12:41

but it might turn out that square miles of elevated land becomes valuable as the sea levels rise

Ben Hammond12:12:58

which I suppose might put Scotland in a strong position

cddr21:12:33

On the other hand, a sudden unexpected increase in the value of land doesn't seem to be helping the average Bolivian at the moment.

Ben Hammond12:12:17

and the Alpine states of Europe

dominicm12:12:55

Does any political system have an abstain option?

Ben Hammond12:12:56

You can spoil your ballot. But it doesn't really make much of a statement

Ben Hammond12:12:11

The monster raving looney party has gone defunct hasn't it?

acron13:12:59

Lord Bucketface has reinvented himself as Count Binface, so that's always an option if you're in Uxbridge (sadly, neither of us are).

Ben Hammond12:12:20

Which is a great pity

Ben Hammond12:12:00

There's usually a few independent candidates on the ballot

Ben Hammond12:12:27

Who you've never heard of until you get to the voting booth

Ben Hammond12:12:02

You should look up what your exact options are

dominicm13:12:57

What's the point of voting for an independent?

Jcaw13:12:16

I guess Independents with a larger than normal vote share can use it as leverage in future elections

Jcaw13:12:33

"I'm good, let me stand under your party"

Jcaw13:12:29

Some independents are also ex-members who disobeyed the whip

alexlynham13:12:42

there are independents who can win in some constituencies

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Ben Hammond13:12:43

Well your vote gets counted

Ben Hammond13:12:05

It's a better statement than spoilage

Ben Hammond13:12:14

Or not turning up

alexlynham13:12:57

also tbh you can’t complain about politics unless you use your vote. people have died for the right to vote and however exhausting politics is atm it’s your responsibility to research and use it imo

otfrom14:12:07

I disagree with you on that. Deciding not to participate still gives you the right to complain. Tho I will be voting.

otfrom08:12:06

for me voting is trying to choose the opposition I want

alexlynham09:12:59

idk I have friends that spoiled ballots in areas that actually swing between parties so maybe that’s why I’m so harsh about it

otfrom13:12:54

I still think it is a good idea to cajole/encourage friends to vote (depending on the politics of said friends 😉 )

alexlynham16:12:18

I started the last decade with a mix of voting patterns among my mates, but now I think the furthest right any go is lib dem tbh

otfrom11:12:11

so only a few to discourage to stay home then. 😉

alexlynham13:12:31

sorry to be that killjoy guy

alexlynham13:12:02

but, like, the powers that be want you to not care, to not research, ideally to not vote at all

Ben Hammond13:12:27

If you can find an independent who's message you like, or who seems less shifty than the alternative...

Ben Hammond13:12:46

It is supposed to keep the mainstream candidates more honest

Ben Hammond13:12:13

That is simply not true

Ben Hammond13:12:30

Voting really does change thibgs

Ben Hammond13:12:51

Well can Not does

thomas13:12:15

of course it does... just playing D advocate.

thomas13:12:35

and I agree we need to use our vote! Now more than ever.

dominicm13:12:20

Are independents an abstained vote then? I don't understand what happens when they win really. There's no majority, so they're just suppressed the whole time.

Jcaw13:12:10

Arguably the losing party is in a similar position

Ben Hammond13:12:37

> If I don't vote for the winners then it's a wasted vote

Ben Hammond13:12:06

It sends a signal about what you would support

Ben Hammond13:12:59

All MPs vote in their own right

Jcaw13:12:14

I meant: if you're worried about the independents having no power because they can't use a majority to pass legislation, the same applies to any minority

Ben Hammond13:12:29

The party might tell them how to vote if they want to continue to belong

Ben Hammond13:12:53

But ultimately an MP is supposed to represent their constituents

Ben Hammond13:12:59

And nothing else

dominicm13:12:04

I thought that they always had to do as they were told.

rickmoynihan13:12:19

Independents can’t get whipped by their party; so they can vote how they like in parliament. They can in principle side with the government, the opposition, or anyone or anything else.

rickmoynihan13:12:59

So an independent in theory doesn’t have to do as they’re told; aside from pleasing their constituents. Obviously they probably end up doing their own deals etc. Also more chance of independents (and smaller parties) being king makers in an (almost) hung parliament.

otfrom14:12:27

independents matter more when the numbers on an issue are close. It also can get them in the news.

Wes Hall13:12:26

@ben.hammond I'd actually dispute the, "spoilage is a better statement than not voting" notion. Turnout figures are discussed as significant, seen as relevant and used as political capital. Spoiled ballots are not.

Ben Hammond13:12:46

Hmm. I didn't mean to impy that

Ben Hammond13:12:48

The simple act of turning up and voting implies that You exist You give a shit

Ben Hammond13:12:34

And is a much more powerful statement than not turning up

dominicm13:12:17

Doesn't look like there's any independents here. Labour. Tory. Libdem. Green.

acron13:12:25

I'm enjoying reading this

Ben Hammond13:12:04

An unhealthy aspect of this election is that various parties have decided NOT to field candidates

Ben Hammond13:12:27

In order to give us starker choices

Ben Hammond13:12:55

Perhaps some independents have been put off by that

Ben Hammond13:12:14

It's fine to choose to vote tactically

Ben Hammond13:12:25

But not fine to be forced into it

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dominicm13:12:22

I don't understand. Who's done that?

mccraigmccraig13:12:28

i'm fine with this - it's rational behaviour for the non-incumbents in our fptp system

mccraigmccraig13:12:03

if it works then we'll probably end up with a coalition, which would also be the likely result of having a less shit voting system, and seems more likely to engender the grown-up collaboration we'd all like to see

Wes Hall14:12:54

@ben.hammond A powerful statement to who though? Spoiled ballots are still mostly placed in the, "idiot who ticked two boxes" category by the media and politicians so they count for nothing. Whereas if 95% of the electorate are not motivated to vote, the winning party spends the next 5 years being hammered with the message that they don't have a proper mandate. I'd argue that not turning up actually sends are more powerful statement than a spoiled ballot.

Ben Hammond14:12:52

Those are both abysmal outcomes though

Ben Hammond14:12:39

No-one knows if you chose not to vote as a protest

Ben Hammond14:12:53

Or just couldn't get out of bed

Ben Hammond14:12:23

Or spent your day at the works Christmas do, far from your polling station

acron14:12:34

Yeah, I think if there's a low turnout the spin will be "Britain couldn't be bothered" rather than "Britain didn't want to choose between two shit parties"

otfrom14:12:21

depends a bit on whether or not there is a large movement of "they are all awful, we're unhappy". If there is low turnout and no disruption or alternative to daily life then it will just be seen as apathy.

Wes Hall14:12:23

All true enough. I think all I am really saying is, for better or worse, low turn out gets more credit for being the result of political disillusionment than spoiled ballots do. Not sure that this is the proper way to think about it, but it's what tends to happen. I am still giving very serious thought to turning up and simply writing a nice christmas message on my ballot addressed to whoever is doing the count. It sincerely feels like the most good I am able to do this time around.

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minimal14:12:48

The 2019 version came out a couple of days ago: https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/

Wes Hall14:12:45

@minimal Somebody sent me that. I rejected every policy on the first question (and was told I couldn't do this), and when I eventually finished it, two parties were joint first in my results. So I found it less helpful than billed 🙂

mccraigmccraig15:12:43

obvs that means you should yourself be standing as an independent @wesley.hall, 'cos no party represents you

Wes Hall15:12:17

@mccraigmccraig Considered it for a laugh, but my wife has already pledged for Labour and I don't know anybody else that would vote for me. Even I'd have to think about it.

minimal15:12:10

You should join up with Count Binface

yogidevbear15:12:28

I do wonder about things like that voteforpolicies website and whether they are used to misinform people

yogidevbear15:12:57

Kind of like Cambridge Analytica

Samuel15:12:05

CA's attack vector wasn't the quiz though

minimal15:12:06

It’s certainly true of some of the tactical voting sites. vote for polices lets you browse the policies by party at the end to check though

Samuel15:12:51

they built targeted misinformation based on data they mined from facebook, granted by quizzes

yogidevbear15:12:08

Might be the case, but regardless I do still wonder about sites like these when I see them

yogidevbear15:12:22

:tin_hat: 🙂

seancorfield18:12:49

I suspect VfP leans left since it's online and more accessible to folks who lean left (this is a general problem with online only survey systems). That said, it thinks I should vote LibDem (which I have in local elections in the past) or Labour (which I've done in GEs)... and it suggests Aldershot could possibly go to Labour which seems... wishful thinking... it's been Conservative since its creation 100 years ago 😐

yogidevbear21:12:36

Complete sidenote: VWARS, here I come (binge time)

jiriknesl22:12:57

I am in the UK only 2 months so I might be too early to judge but all parties propose almost the same thing. LibDems and Labour seem interchangeable. Conservatives have pro-brexit and anti-brexit wings and the rest is the same “let’s keep NHS, more money for… everybody” as LibDems and Labour.