Fork me on GitHub
#clojure-uk
<
2018-12-03
>
alexlynham08:12:12

I assume because everybody else is at clojurex 😂

otfrom09:12:47

there is always the #clojurex channel too. 😉

otfrom09:12:48

and morning

Conor09:12:38

It is morning time

agile_geek09:12:11

@conor.p.farrell no points for the obvious

agile_geek09:12:07

#clojurex is a weird experience....I know 70% of the faces in this room. Although I only know 30% of the names so if you're here and I have to read your badge, forgive me... I'm old... and used to write COBOL

Conor09:12:50

The sky is grey, life still has no inherent meaning

alexlynham10:12:39

I was gonna say that somebody has gotten out of bed on the wrong side

alexlynham10:12:50

and then looked outside and remembered: Manchester in winter

Conor10:12:59

Eating banana loaf my wife made though

3Jane11:12:10

...aaaand the first PHP jokes drop

danielneal11:12:34

oh is it clojurextoday?

danielneal11:12:59

clojure season is here!

3Jane11:12:27

I don’t know, I nearly broke my teeth just now

bronsa11:12:31

have fun !

bronsa11:12:35

maybe try not doing that

danielneal11:12:43

hard mince pies?

3Jane11:12:04

No, I make a living with PHP

3Jane11:12:42

It pisses me off when people assume I write shit code and am inept because of the language

❤️ 12
danielneal11:12:48

ah I've not heard the expression "broke my teeth"

3Jane11:12:01

You know, when you grit them

danielneal11:12:10

yeah that sucks 😞

3Jane11:12:59

Not every company has the money to invest in tools that don’t have universal adoption, and it’s especially pronounced regionally

3Jane11:12:41

Recently someone from functional community wrote on Twitter that they’d like to hear some talks about what problems small companies have and how they solve them.

3Jane11:12:14

Well, that’s how they do it. But I can’t imagine anybody giving a talk about it because that’s not something you can brag about to other programmers. (I could definitely see a talk directed to non tech entrepreneurs: how to solve X,000,000 problems with X,000 budget)

3Jane11:12:44

On a more cheerful note, though, I brought cake :)

danielneal11:12:18

alienating people carries such a high cost

3Jane12:12:09

Missing cake? Definitely high cost :D

reborg12:12:06

@lady3janepl I hear you, I’m also annoyed by these jokes

otfrom12:12:23

Hmm... People should only make jokes about the languages they have to suffer through personally. (I feel grumbling is ok but sneering isn't)

4
danm14:12:33

I've never had to write PHP. Is it worse than, say, Perl?

sleepyfox22:12:42

See 'PHP, a fractal of bad design' for the low-down.

danm11:12:33

> A language must be concise. New languages exist to reduce the boilerplate inherent in old languages. (We could all write machine code.) A language must thus strive to avoid introducing new boilerplate of its own. Hah, not sure I agree with that. A lot of languages seem to sacrifice clarify and understanding for conciseness. Code is generally written once and read many times, so unless there is a clear performance difference for some reason, I'd rather see the longer-form-but-easier-to-understand version any day

danm11:12:50

The author then talks about writing machine code. Which is less concise, true, but also harder to understand. When I see 'concise' I am reminded of horrible Perl one liners that take an hour to understand

danm14:12:47

I've had to write a fair amount of Perl over the years.

bronsa14:12:23

php 4 was horrific, nowadays it's not too bad of a language

bronsa14:12:31

comparable to python IMO

danm14:12:08

Surely the complaints should be directed at the language, rather than the people who use it? If it's popular, there's generally a reason

3Jane14:12:13

The reason it’s popular is that it used to be very cheap to run and scale horizontally, and also very well documented and easy to learn.

3Jane14:12:07

The things people hate on are generally different from the things that were actually problematic

3Jane14:12:19

For example, people hate on Wordpress and inconsistency in function naming and argument order

3Jane14:12:05

What was actually a problem was memory leaks due to garbage collection using reference counting and not collecting circular references well.

3Jane15:12:47

But: 1) it wasn’t that much of a problem since the whole environment was (and is) torn down after every request; unless you used things like ORMs and you know what I think about ORMs 2) they’ve fixed it years ago.

3Jane15:12:31

Also, (inc PHP-bomb-counter)

3Jane15:12:25

Also, argh, I took over a Clojure channel with an other-languages rant, sorry XD

dominicm15:12:19

We're not supposed to be on topic

dominicm15:12:21

When you mention Clojure I think you're off topic

😆 12
3Jane15:12:04

Also, I do think complaints mix up language and people... but the essence is that it’s too easy to use PHP and therefore much of the code out there is hacked together by people who don’t know or care about security, extensibility, or aesthetics. It’s become a shibboleth for people who don’t know any better, because people who don’t know any better are able to use it, and thus inhabit it at a larger rate than other languages. It’s not elite enough. (Cue conversation about gatekeeping, elitism, keeping out minorities who can’t afford spending years in academia or specialised self study etc)

otfrom15:12:03

PHP sounds like a good kind of thing to discuss on this channel

otfrom15:12:23

I do have to admit that I'm very happy to not be doing any salesforce (apex or otherwise) code any more.

otfrom15:12:48

I do worry that I'll end up having to do a lot of integration with salesforce one day (and that I'll regret not having kept up)

danielneal15:12:49

Anyone know how to get a REPL connected to emacs with the new clj tools

danielneal16:12:08

ah I've got it

alexlynham16:12:16

care to share? 🙂

danielneal16:12:21

oh my bad it doesn't work 😂 but I will when it does !

danielneal16:12:53

I think I found the instructions though

danielneal16:12:31

took a decent amount of googling 😂 as far as I know socket repl/prepl aren't supported yet by cider, so need to start nrepl with the correct middleware and - hopefully - emacs will pick it up

danielneal16:12:38

I think I need to update my spacemacs config though...

danielneal16:12:09

time for a cup of tea (!)

danielneal16:12:00

I'm regretting this already

danielneal16:12:16

I'll just have a go at advent of code while my code is compiling I thought

danielneal16:12:23

I'll try using the new clj tools I thought

danielneal16:12:32

That would be fun I thought

bronsa16:12:54

last time I had that though I ended up reinstalling my os

bronsa16:12:06

I think you're on the right trajectory

danielneal16:12:31

ah @alex.lynham think I've got it working

danielneal16:12:36

used this as my deps.edn

danielneal16:12:48

Then clj -A:nrepl

danielneal16:12:00

and cider-connect worked & found the connection

bronsa16:12:24

why is that require quoted?

bronsa16:12:08

unacceptable

danielneal16:12:30

it's a mistake

danielneal16:12:34

it works now

danielneal16:12:45

it worked before but I don't know why

danielneal16:12:54

maybe the require not necessary

bronsa16:12:10

I suppose cider auto-requires its backend stuff

danielneal16:12:07

ah dammit deleted the wrong line

bronsa16:12:13

god damit daniel

bronsa16:12:18

we don't pay you to make those mistakes

danielneal16:12:26

"For version control, we use slack"

yogidevbear19:12:17

For those that missed it, the cider talk today was brilliant "Brewing CIDER: It Starts with an Orchard". It's the only video that hasn't made it onto the skillsmatter website yet

dominicm20:12:39

@yogidevbear how did you find the orchard talk? I'm curious, as a contributor

yogidevbear20:12:32

It was really good and extremely funny

dominicm20:12:21

@yogidevbear what was the general theme?

yogidevbear20:12:00

There was a lot of focus around nREPL and around cider being Clojure cider instead of Emacs cider

yogidevbear20:12:03

And some other things 😄

yogidevbear20:12:28

Definitely worth a watch when they get the video up

3Jane21:12:05

Here’s an overview/IMO: Solid/must-see: - performance (speed bumps ahead) Funny: - Jason’s - CIDER “Hmm, I wanna hear more”: - Peter’s (text adventure) - Jason’s (auto-updating AI) - ontology (but that’s because I’m interested in them) “I wanna play with this!” - Making music Controversial: - OOP in FP (at least for me) - CIDER Beginner-friendly/useful: - Running without an API - Writing Java in Clojure (how to structure Clojure better) …and the other stuff I either missed (sorry!), or have seen already

dominicm22:12:45

@lady3janepl why is oop in fp controversial?

3Jane22:12:57

Personal opinion. It triggered my internal “well ACKSHUALLY” several times.

3Jane22:12:34

So basically this is a category where my inner moderator would expect an internet shitstorm to trigger, given appropriate participants

peterwestmacott22:12:58

the performance one was good for me too

alexlynham22:12:58

> OOP in FP I’m right there with you. Just winced a little

rickmoynihan23:12:09

vids up already? Great!

3Jane23:12:09

I think so, they posted links. I’m impressed.

rickmoynihan23:12:12

yeah they are… just signed in and watching the perf one 🙂

seancorfield23:12:42

@lady3janepl CIDER talk was both funny and controversial? I'm curious about that...

danm11:12:33

> A language must be concise. New languages exist to reduce the boilerplate inherent in old languages. (We could all write machine code.) A language must thus strive to avoid introducing new boilerplate of its own. Hah, not sure I agree with that. A lot of languages seem to sacrifice clarify and understanding for conciseness. Code is generally written once and read many times, so unless there is a clear performance difference for some reason, I'd rather see the longer-form-but-easier-to-understand version any day