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#clojure-uk
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2018-12-03
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alexlynham08:12:12

I assume because everybody else is at clojurex šŸ˜‚

otfrom09:12:47

there is always the #clojurex channel too. šŸ˜‰

otfrom09:12:48

and morning

Conor09:12:38

It is morning time

agile_geek09:12:11

@conor.p.farrell no points for the obvious

agile_geek09:12:07

#clojurex is a weird experience....I know 70% of the faces in this room. Although I only know 30% of the names so if you're here and I have to read your badge, forgive me... I'm old... and used to write COBOL

Conor09:12:50

The sky is grey, life still has no inherent meaning

alexlynham10:12:39

I was gonna say that somebody has gotten out of bed on the wrong side

alexlynham10:12:50

and then looked outside and remembered: Manchester in winter

Conor10:12:59

Eating banana loaf my wife made though

3Jane11:12:10

...aaaand the first PHP jokes drop

danielneal11:12:34

oh is it clojurextoday?

danielneal11:12:59

clojure season is here!

3Jane11:12:27

I donā€™t know, I nearly broke my teeth just now

bronsa11:12:31

have fun !

bronsa11:12:35

maybe try not doing that

danielneal11:12:43

hard mince pies?

3Jane11:12:04

No, I make a living with PHP

3Jane11:12:42

It pisses me off when people assume I write shit code and am inept because of the language

ā¤ļø 12
danielneal11:12:48

ah I've not heard the expression "broke my teeth"

3Jane11:12:01

You know, when you grit them

danielneal11:12:10

yeah that sucks šŸ˜ž

3Jane11:12:59

Not every company has the money to invest in tools that donā€™t have universal adoption, and itā€™s especially pronounced regionally

3Jane11:12:41

Recently someone from functional community wrote on Twitter that theyā€™d like to hear some talks about what problems small companies have and how they solve them.

3Jane11:12:14

Well, thatā€™s how they do it. But I canā€™t imagine anybody giving a talk about it because thatā€™s not something you can brag about to other programmers. (I could definitely see a talk directed to non tech entrepreneurs: how to solve X,000,000 problems with X,000 budget)

3Jane11:12:44

On a more cheerful note, though, I brought cake :)

danielneal11:12:18

alienating people carries such a high cost

3Jane12:12:09

Missing cake? Definitely high cost :D

reborg12:12:06

@lady3janepl I hear you, Iā€™m also annoyed by these jokes

otfrom12:12:23

Hmm... People should only make jokes about the languages they have to suffer through personally. (I feel grumbling is ok but sneering isn't)

āž• 4
danm14:12:33

I've never had to write PHP. Is it worse than, say, Perl?

sleepyfox22:12:42

See 'PHP, a fractal of bad design' for the low-down.

danm11:12:33

> A language must be concise. New languages exist to reduce the boilerplate inherent in old languages. (We could all write machine code.) A language must thus strive to avoid introducing new boilerplate of its own. Hah, not sure I agree with that. A lot of languages seem to sacrifice clarify and understanding for conciseness. Code is generally written once and read many times, so unless there is a clear performance difference for some reason, I'd rather see the longer-form-but-easier-to-understand version any day

danm11:12:50

The author then talks about writing machine code. Which is less concise, true, but also harder to understand. When I see 'concise' I am reminded of horrible Perl one liners that take an hour to understand

danm14:12:47

I've had to write a fair amount of Perl over the years.

bronsa14:12:23

php 4 was horrific, nowadays it's not too bad of a language

bronsa14:12:31

comparable to python IMO

danm14:12:08

Surely the complaints should be directed at the language, rather than the people who use it? If it's popular, there's generally a reason

3Jane14:12:13

The reason itā€™s popular is that it used to be very cheap to run and scale horizontally, and also very well documented and easy to learn.

3Jane14:12:07

The things people hate on are generally different from the things that were actually problematic

3Jane14:12:19

For example, people hate on Wordpress and inconsistency in function naming and argument order

3Jane14:12:05

What was actually a problem was memory leaks due to garbage collection using reference counting and not collecting circular references well.

3Jane15:12:47

But: 1) it wasnā€™t that much of a problem since the whole environment was (and is) torn down after every request; unless you used things like ORMs and you know what I think about ORMs 2) theyā€™ve fixed it years ago.

3Jane15:12:31

Also, (inc PHP-bomb-counter)

3Jane15:12:25

Also, argh, I took over a Clojure channel with an other-languages rant, sorry XD

dominicm15:12:19

We're not supposed to be on topic

dominicm15:12:21

When you mention Clojure I think you're off topic

šŸ˜† 12
3Jane15:12:04

Also, I do think complaints mix up language and people... but the essence is that itā€™s too easy to use PHP and therefore much of the code out there is hacked together by people who donā€™t know or care about security, extensibility, or aesthetics. Itā€™s become a shibboleth for people who donā€™t know any better, because people who donā€™t know any better are able to use it, and thus inhabit it at a larger rate than other languages. Itā€™s not elite enough. (Cue conversation about gatekeeping, elitism, keeping out minorities who canā€™t afford spending years in academia or specialised self study etc)

otfrom15:12:03

PHP sounds like a good kind of thing to discuss on this channel

otfrom15:12:23

I do have to admit that I'm very happy to not be doing any salesforce (apex or otherwise) code any more.

otfrom15:12:48

I do worry that I'll end up having to do a lot of integration with salesforce one day (and that I'll regret not having kept up)

danielneal15:12:49

Anyone know how to get a REPL connected to emacs with the new clj tools

danielneal16:12:08

ah I've got it

alexlynham16:12:16

care to share? šŸ™‚

danielneal16:12:21

oh my bad it doesn't work šŸ˜‚ but I will when it does !

danielneal16:12:53

I think I found the instructions though

danielneal16:12:31

took a decent amount of googling šŸ˜‚ as far as I know socket repl/prepl aren't supported yet by cider, so need to start nrepl with the correct middleware and - hopefully - emacs will pick it up

danielneal16:12:38

I think I need to update my spacemacs config though...

danielneal16:12:09

time for a cup of tea (!)

danielneal16:12:00

I'm regretting this already

danielneal16:12:16

I'll just have a go at advent of code while my code is compiling I thought

danielneal16:12:23

I'll try using the new clj tools I thought

danielneal16:12:32

That would be fun I thought

bronsa16:12:54

last time I had that though I ended up reinstalling my os

bronsa16:12:06

I think you're on the right trajectory

danielneal16:12:31

ah @alex.lynham think I've got it working

danielneal16:12:36

used this as my deps.edn

danielneal16:12:48

Then clj -A:nrepl

danielneal16:12:00

and cider-connect worked & found the connection

bronsa16:12:24

why is that require quoted?

bronsa16:12:08

unacceptable

danielneal16:12:30

it's a mistake

danielneal16:12:34

it works now

danielneal16:12:45

it worked before but I don't know why

danielneal16:12:54

maybe the require not necessary

bronsa16:12:10

I suppose cider auto-requires its backend stuff

danielneal16:12:07

ah dammit deleted the wrong line

bronsa16:12:13

god damit daniel

bronsa16:12:18

we don't pay you to make those mistakes

danielneal16:12:26

"For version control, we use slack"

yogidevbear19:12:17

For those that missed it, the cider talk today was brilliant "Brewing CIDER: It Starts with an Orchard". It's the only video that hasn't made it onto the skillsmatter website yet

dominicm20:12:39

@yogidevbear how did you find the orchard talk? I'm curious, as a contributor

yogidevbear20:12:32

It was really good and extremely funny

dominicm20:12:21

@yogidevbear what was the general theme?

yogidevbear20:12:00

There was a lot of focus around nREPL and around cider being Clojure cider instead of Emacs cider

yogidevbear20:12:03

And some other things šŸ˜„

yogidevbear20:12:28

Definitely worth a watch when they get the video up

3Jane21:12:05

Hereā€™s an overview/IMO: Solid/must-see: - performance (speed bumps ahead) Funny: - Jasonā€™s - CIDER ā€œHmm, I wanna hear moreā€: - Peterā€™s (text adventure) - Jasonā€™s (auto-updating AI) - ontology (but thatā€™s because Iā€™m interested in them) ā€œI wanna play with this!ā€ - Making music Controversial: - OOP in FP (at least for me) - CIDER Beginner-friendly/useful: - Running without an API - Writing Java in Clojure (how to structure Clojure better) ā€¦and the other stuff I either missed (sorry!), or have seen already

dominicm22:12:45

@lady3janepl why is oop in fp controversial?

3Jane22:12:57

Personal opinion. It triggered my internal ā€œwell ACKSHUALLYā€ several times.

3Jane22:12:34

So basically this is a category where my inner moderator would expect an internet shitstorm to trigger, given appropriate participants

Rachel Westmacott22:12:58

the performance one was good for me too

alexlynham22:12:58

> OOP in FP Iā€™m right there with you. Just winced a little

rickmoynihan23:12:09

vids up already? Great!

3Jane23:12:09

I think so, they posted links. Iā€™m impressed.

rickmoynihan23:12:12

yeah they areā€¦ just signed in and watching the perf one šŸ™‚

seancorfield23:12:42

@lady3janepl CIDER talk was both funny and controversial? I'm curious about that...

danm11:12:33

> A language must be concise. New languages exist to reduce the boilerplate inherent in old languages. (We could all write machine code.) A language must thus strive to avoid introducing new boilerplate of its own. Hah, not sure I agree with that. A lot of languages seem to sacrifice clarify and understanding for conciseness. Code is generally written once and read many times, so unless there is a clear performance difference for some reason, I'd rather see the longer-form-but-easier-to-understand version any day