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@martinklepsch: tbh if you can get away with rethink I would go for that, it’s more batteries included than couchdb
how can I add a new page to the colleciton?
There is a section in the Contributing pad but even after setting visibility to public the collection doesn't show up when searching for it
Oh look, it's @martinklepsch
@dominicm: The server-to-server spec isn't quite ready if I understood correctly?
is there a possibility that someone else writes, like, an iOS or android app compatible with matrix and this app could be used by clojurians? I see that matrix guys have SDKs for mobile platforms
@dominicm: if you have additions ...
Also if someone could add it to the collection that'd be great, couldn't figure out how
Well, big plus of Matrix is that there is already an implementation of the server that can be used, so the focus can be on creating an awesome frontend. And if someone would want to showcase that Clojure is cool for the backend too, there's nothing stopping them, but things can be done in parallel thanks to that - no need to wait on server impl before starting on the front.
@martinklepsch: I think I just added this page to the collection
http://matrix.org/blog/2015/12/25/the-matrix-holiday-special/ — matrix<>slack bridges!
There's a Clojure room on Matrix btw, if people want to play around
Vector is a pretty nice client impl
I guess that, again, this might be something that could be implemented with their extensible message format
I don't really mind lack of emojis or reactions or somesuch; I alwayss just ASCII my emotes anyway : V
Yeah, maybe I just had the meaning wrong - I figured redacting means editing text for publication (and not only removing).
> Since some events cannot be simply deleted, e.g. membership events, we instead 'redact' events. This involves removing all keys from an event that are not required by the protocol. This stripped down event is thereafter returned anytime a client or remote server requests it
If http://matrix.org was decided to be ready for us, it'd be possible to start shifting immediately. With the understanding that we could extend it to "fit the bill"
#matrix:http://matrix.org When I say "works" I mean, seems feasible.
I like the whole matrix idea because the guys have put much thought into it. it's definitely better than the idea of making a slick frontend for IRC
so the golden path could be just creating a cool cljs client for matrix server... and later throwing out matrix server code and replacing it with infamous "50 lines" of clojure code
Yup, that seems like a reasonable course of action, though I imagine it'll be a bit more than 50 lines, but certainly way less than Python xD
The way I see it is that we could even just suggest vector for day 1, by day 10 have our own client, and on day 11 we throw up our own server.
I REALLY feel like matrix is the proper solution to our problem. In that, it's all about open communities.
http://whatthefuck.computer/blog/2015/11/01/on-the-balkinization-of-my-chat-communities/ <-- I really felt in agreement with this.
I really like how it's possible for matrix to authenticate via facebook if you chose to as well.
I imagine with the notion of so many clients, that if you choose to ignore a message, then so be it.
Well, supporting VOIP would be cool though; as long as it's not as much of a central focus as it is in discord it would be helpful probably.
In fact, it seems that we can't avoid building at least a client (be it matrix powered or whatnot)
So the step would be to get everyone who wants to participate on the same page. Or on several distinct pages, heh
I think we're far away from any sort of migration. I'm pretty sure that as long as Slack isn't capping this community the incentive to collectively move somewhere else will be small. So now should IMO be spent discussing whether to proceed w/ Matrix, how to proceed, who takes some lead role etc .
Oh, nice, they seem to be considering a websocket extension to the protocol - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/master/drafts/websockets.rst
# be9's 11:9 And so it was prophesized, that upon dooms day two factions would lead strong. The Matrix, and The Braid "guys." Each would put forth their greatest parinfer, and a great battle would follow. The champion would lead the Clojurians to salvation.
But in general I agree - Matrix seems like a really viable solution if we would want a room-based alternative.
(by matrix I mean the whole plethora of related options, like their or our server impl., vector or our client, etc)
the server federation capability of matrix protocol, http://matrix.org/docs/spec/r0.0.1/server_server.html
I live in Russian Federation and this one has been bad for the world lately 😛 but that's totally different story seriously, I think federation is good
what I want to say is that if there are no arguments against matrix, why look into reinventing the wheel? matrix looks more promising than everything else
I mean, maybe there are legitimate downsides to that? I can't imagine one but maybe I'm missing something.
We totally can reinvent wheel (or at least part of it) even with Matrix - we can start with their Python server impl to develop the client with and after that is stable then we write our own Clojure one.
IIRC the protocol is meant to be extensible so if we need things Matrix doesn't provide there's still rooms for plugins and whatnot.
minor UI thing I'm not sure how to do in Matrix yet: linking to other rooms
Slack has this very clear @user #room thing which might be nice to have in our version of Matrix as well
however that imposes some constraints on room names
but I guess that'd be ok-ish
I don't think it's a problem. if you want your room to be linkable, just don't put fancy unicode symbols in its name
If we did matrix, would we run our own server (e.g. http://matrix.clojurians.org), and then we can have generic names quite comfortably.
@be9: I think putting an at in front is effectless whereas in slack it provides suggestions after 3 characters
but all that could be done in a frontend as well so ...
yeah, it's frontend. I aim at identifying any real show stoppers for jumping into matrix wagon
these seem like pretty small show-stoppers so far so what do we need to do to deploy matrix?
as for their python server, https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#synapse-installation
> The only disadvantage is that the code is relatively new as of April 2015 and may have a few regressions relative to SQLite.
SQL doesn't strike me as the most fitting store for chats, but then again this would be something to use to jumpstart the client development.
since the server stuff is/will-be spec'd you could probably write your own server impl with whatever db you like?
Sure, but like I said it's probably irrelevant at this point, we would only need a backend to test on and the reference impl would just as well in this case.
Was just a general remark; especially considering the messages are extensible, so something like a document store could be better suited.
I dunno, I'm somewhat nay on datomic - a) license, b) it can't even do sort and limit when querying.
I guess a streaming/realtime db would make sense
so rethinkdb comes to mind, probably there are quite a few others in that space
but anyways, that's a yak for another time 😛
hi @daveliepmann, good to see you
mornin! the timezones around here really do make for round-the-clock chatting. lots to catch up on
I mean, they run VoIP as an extension pretty much, so... I guess it'll be fairly simple.
And like Dominic says, they said adding things like editing or tagging should be relatively easy.
THREADING!!!! 😄 https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/community-development/p1452700900002096
It'd be nice if one could remove threads that one is not interested in, but given that there is no good way to link chat messages together, it won't work well enough anyway.
well sometimes it’s just a bunch of lazy folks 😄 when conscientious citizens are offline practicing their idealism elsewhere
I understand threads when you are sitting in your mail client and can pick a message to reply to. or in a web forum
and I definitely want a bit more stable room stuff, combined with the spontaneous threads as well
But jumping the mental threads of conversation might be more confusing that way, I think.
someone was just adding a link https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/community-development/p1452703078002145
But you can respond to specific posts by their numbers and they are displayed contextually when you hover
I think those refs could be hidden in message text when you reply, and shown by the client
Like I said, the messages are extensible. Can't find you exact place in spec to quote, but that's what developers said.
I see. In fact, spec says which attributes must present in an appropriate section of JSON, but we can add more
* Sending and receiving extensible messages in a room with (optional) end-to-end encryption * Extensible user management (inviting, joining, leaving, kicking, banning) mediated by a power-level based user privilege system. * Extensible room state management (room naming, aliasing, topics, bans) * Extensible user profile management (avatars, display names, etc)
let me know if/when someone wants to start putting together a matrix server like we did for http://mattermost.clojurians.net
Looks pretty easy to set up with docker - https://github.com/silvio/docker-matrix
they even have an oldschool deb package http://matrix.org/packages/debian/
@meow: Can you send me a message and catch me up with what I've missed in the last few days please, got called away on business last minute.
@gjnoonan: I can try, but, like, a shitload of stuff has been happening and it might take me 3 days to catch you up and in the mean time ... 😈
I would still wrap a Jar in a container for deployment.. but that's another topic. I will set up matrix
let me know about the tooling... see if I can help. I've not heard back from @tcrawley has he been around?
@jaredly: just register with https://vector.im and then in the left bottom corner you have "Directory".
lots of easy to fix clojars issues if anyone can help: https://github.com/clojars/clojars-web/labels/ready
oh, yeah, some great, great content has been contributed to the hackpad so be sure to look at that
http://mattermost.clojurians.net is a 👻 town but has great content we left behind
right there is a mattrix homeserver and http://vector.im client running
@gjnoonan: right there means http://matrix.clojurians.net or some other subdomain?
> http://matrix.clojurians.net has address 22.214.171.124
https://matrix.clojurians.net/ actually shows something
I’m trying to use http://vector.im, but creating an account with http://matrix.clojurians.net doesn’t work
@tcrawley: just wanted to chat about the "Clojure foundation" and fundraising you mentioned briefly last week, both to see what I can do to help, and if there's anything we can do that is mutually beneficial to clojars and clojurians. Feel free to pm me :-)
worst intro ever
While I am eager to experiment with new approaches to communication apps I think maybe this is not the right problem to solve for us as a community right now. Most of our ideas are not validated and might result in a big mess.
all I hear is fear - that belongs in the
concerns document, not the lead to a solutions document, imo
the judge rules in favor of the defendent - you are free to go - the developers failed to make a reasonable case
fwiw, I read through the matrix protocol, and it looks super awesome + I think it would meet our needs. I’m definitely in favor of leveraging that protocol so we can spend out efforts on making a great experience