what's so cool about matrix - is it the implementation or the concepts

if it's the concepts we can borrow them and implement them in clojure

@tbrooke: welcome

@martinklepsch: tbh if you can get away with rethink I would go for that, it’s more batteries included than couchdb

how can I add a new page to the colleciton?

There is a section in the Contributing pad but even after setting visibility to public the collection doesn't show up when searching for it

@meow: There's a specification we can implement in Clojure, yes.

Apparently Matrix is very ready for prime-time

Oh look, it's @martinklepsch

@dominicm: The server-to-server spec isn't quite ready if I understood correctly?

is there a possibility that someone else writes, like, an iOS or android app compatible with matrix and this app could be used by clojurians? I see that matrix guys have SDKs for mobile platforms

https://hackpad.com/The-case-for-Matrix-xRXYSO9zpyh

@dominicm: if you have additions ...

Also if someone could add it to the collection that'd be great, couldn't figure out how

Well, big plus of Matrix is that there is already an implementation of the server that can be used, so the focus can be on creating an awesome frontend. And if someone would want to showcase that Clojure is cool for the backend too, there's nothing stopping them, but things can be done in parallel thanks to that - no need to wait on server impl before starting on the front.

has anyone tested their server impl already?

@martinklepsch: I think I just added this page to the collection

@be9 thanks!

http://matrix.org/blog/2015/12/25/the-matrix-holiday-special/ — matrix<>slack bridges!

There's a Clojure room on Matrix btw, if people want to play around

Vector is a pretty nice client impl

now we could make a bridge between freenode IRC channel and clojurians with... matrix! 😄

just logged in into matrix with vector — not bad

well, it seems that matrix client-server spec doesn't include reactions

also true

But JSON makes it so!

I guess that, again, this might be something that could be implemented with their extensible message format

I can't find if one can edit messages there

I don't really mind lack of emojis or reactions or somesuch; I alwayss just ASCII my emotes anyway : V

@be9: hover over, options > redact

it seems

reDact 😉

Not react.

for me it just deletes

Ah, that removes xD

Oh well : D

As in "redact this message from history"

Which is a neat feature in and of itself.

@dominicm: nah, I know what it said; it was re: editing

and suggests to me that changing data about previous messages may be possible.

I thought you can redact the content without removing it.

ah.

I see what you mean.

http://matrix.org/docs/spec/r0.0.1/client_server.html#redactions

Yeah, maybe I just had the meaning wrong - I figured redacting means editing text for publication (and not only removing).

basically it's a fancy word for deletion

> Since some events cannot be simply deleted, e.g. membership events, we instead 'redact' events. This involves removing all keys from an event that are not required by the protocol. This stripped down event is thereafter returned anytime a client or remote server requests it

Yeah, I can see it now.

So an English fail on my part, sorry P ;

so matrix falls short on editing messages

If http://matrix.org was decided to be ready for us, it'd be possible to start shifting immediately. With the understanding that we could extend it to "fit the bill"

that's why I asked if anyone has actually tested their server implementation

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything re: editing in the spec.

The proposal of an update-message works though.

Sauce?

#matrix:http://matrix.org When I say "works" I mean, seems feasible.

I like the whole matrix idea because the guys have put much thought into it. it's definitely better than the idea of making a slick frontend for IRC

^^ For sure.

You mean, they're discussing the proposal in that room right now?

so the golden path could be just creating a cool cljs client for matrix server... and later throwing out matrix server code and replacing it with infamous "50 lines" of clojure code

Lol.

Yup, that seems like a reasonable course of action, though I imagine it'll be a bit more than 50 lines, but certainly way less than Python xD

The way I see it is that we could even just suggest vector for day 1, by day 10 have our own client, and on day 11 we throw up our own server.

looooong lines they would be 😛

I REALLY feel like matrix is the proper solution to our problem. In that, it's all about open communities.

http://whatthefuck.computer/blog/2015/11/01/on-the-balkinization-of-my-chat-communities/ <-- I really felt in agreement with this.

vector is kind of a thin wrapper around matrix js sdk

https://github.com/vector-im/vector-web

look at the source, it has kind of 10 js files (not counting react views)

We... could implement that fast in cljs.

They have a ready-made set of React components I think

ah

This - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/tree/master

At the very least it could be cannibaliseable

It's always nice to have a reference impl to look at

I really like how it's possible for matrix to authenticate via facebook if you chose to as well.

The notion of identity is really distributed, I like it.

I wonder if we'd need to support VoIP capabilities, heh

I imagine with the notion of so many clients, that if you choose to ignore a message, then so be it.

I'd guess that the weechat, irc, etc. clients, all ignore voip

Well, supporting VOIP would be cool though; as long as it's not as much of a central focus as it is in discord it would be helpful probably.

So what would be the "next step" in getting an actual migration?

(to any platform)

Like, wait for slackpocalypse? 😄

In fact, it seems that we can't avoid building at least a client (be it matrix powered or whatnot)

So the step would be to get everyone who wants to participate on the same page. Or on several distinct pages, heh

Like, there are braid guys and there could be matrix guys

When the doom day comes, the most prominent solution will win, I guess

I think we're far away from any sort of migration. I'm pretty sure that as long as Slack isn't capping this community the incentive to collectively move somewhere else will be small. So now should IMO be spent discussing whether to proceed w/ Matrix, how to proceed, who takes some lead role etc .

Oh, nice, they seem to be considering a websocket extension to the protocol - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/master/drafts/websockets.rst

# be9's 11:9

And so it was prophesized, that upon dooms day two factions would lead strong.
The Matrix, and The Braid "guys." Each would put forth their greatest parinfer, and
a great battle would follow. The champion would lead the Clojurians to salvation.

I kek'd

But in general I agree - Matrix seems like a really viable solution if we would want a room-based alternative.

How do you mean "room-based" ?

Room/channel/whatever. Like in Slack or IRC. As opposed to tag-based Braid.

ah, I haven't seen braid's plans.

it was tough @dominicm !

anyway, are there any arguments specifically against matrix?

(by matrix I mean the whole plethora of related options, like their or our server impl., vector or our client, etc)

like, maybe federation is bad

I don't understand what you mean by federation here @be9?

the server federation capability of matrix protocol, http://matrix.org/docs/spec/r0.0.1/server_server.html

IIRC federation is synchronisation between matrix homeservers.

Hmm

What could be bad about federation?

^^ this. I mean, distribution is great, surely?

I live in Russian Federation and this one has been bad for the world lately 😛 but that's totally different story seriously, I think federation is good

heh.

what I want to say is that if there are no arguments against matrix, why look into reinventing the wheel? matrix looks more promising than everything else

I mean, maybe there are legitimate downsides to that? I can't imagine one but maybe I'm missing something.

Yeah, I agree.

I mean

We totally can reinvent wheel (or at least part of it) even with Matrix - we can start with their Python server impl to develop the client with and after that is stable then we write our own Clojure one.

IIRC the protocol is meant to be extensible so if we need things Matrix doesn't provide there's still rooms for plugins and whatnot.

what I like about this is the ability to postpone the work on server wheel 😄

Yep

braid in matrix. Woah.

I've been also bit by NIH virus and would probably participate in the server effort

Lol.

Well, not with the plain protocol, but with some extension probably?

Yeah. Extension.

just put [#cooltag] into every message and there you go

(in some private braid room)

minor UI thing I'm not sure how to do in Matrix yet: linking to other rooms

Slack has this very clear @user #room thing which might be nice to have in our version of Matrix as well

however that imposes some constraints on room names

but I guess that'd be ok-ish

I don't think it's a problem. if you want your room to be linkable, just don't put fancy unicode symbols in its name

If we did matrix, would we run our own server (e.g. http://matrix.clojurians.org), and then we can have generic names quite comfortably.

the @user thing seems to work in vector, doesn't it?

@be9: I think putting an at in front is effectless whereas in slack it provides suggestions after 3 characters

but all that could be done in a frontend as well so ...

yeah, it's frontend. I aim at identifying any real show stoppers for jumping into matrix wagon

these seem like pretty small show-stoppers so far so what do we need to do to deploy matrix?

as for their python server, https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#synapse-installation

btw they used sqlite from the start and then added postgresql support

> The only disadvantage is that the code is relatively new as of April 2015 and may have a few regressions relative to SQLite.

SQL doesn't strike me as the most fitting store for chats, but then again this would be something to use to jumpstart the client development.

since the server stuff is/will-be spec'd you could probably write your own server impl with whatever db you like?

Sure, but like I said it's probably irrelevant at this point, we would only need a backend to test on and the reference impl would just as well in this case.

absolutely. and SQL db could be migrated later into... datomic?

Was just a general remark; especially considering the messages are extensible, so something like a document store could be better suited.

what's the latest hotness for chats? 😄

I dunno, I'm somewhat nay on datomic - a) license, b) it can't even do sort and limit when querying.

I guess a streaming/realtime db would make sense

rethinkdb?

so rethinkdb comes to mind, probably there are quite a few others in that space

but anyways, that's a yak for another time 😛

Or a tabular database.

But yeah, another time, another yak.

Client should be the first one.

yes, one yak at a time

@daveliepmann: welcome

hi @daveliepmann, good to see you

howdy folks

Hullo

mornin! the timezones around here really do make for round-the-clock chatting. lots to catch up on

morning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf5TgVRGND4

I think there's a serious new contender on the table @jaredly

matrix?

yessir

how extensible is the protocol?

Extensible enough, that when I mentioned adding editing, they said it's not hard.

I mean, they run VoIP as an extension pretty much, so... I guess it'll be fairly simple.

It's apparently just JSON that you can extend.

I can't tell offhand but it's mean to be extensible.

And like Dominic says, they said adding things like editing or tagging should be relatively easy.

THREADING!!!! 😄 https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/community-development/p1452700900002096

we’d say «lots threads to expand» if it were threading

I personally don’t think threading would add much value

It'd be nice if one could remove threads that one is not interested in, but given that there is no good way to link chat messages together, it won't work well enough anyway.

@be9: but the threads might be summarized 😄

oh sweet @jaredly! who’d do this?

conscientious citizens who have the context

well sometimes it’s just a bunch of lazy folks 😄 when conscientious citizens are offline practicing their idealism elsewhere

but the first one to come back and go through the trouble can save time for the rest

I understand threads when you are sitting in your mail client and can pick a message to reply to. or in a web forum

but chats are, uhm, more spontaneous

there are certainly a lot of questions to be explored

discourse could be installed, solely for threads 😉

but then loose all the spontaneity

ok, so the deal is «spontaneous threads»

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ANAIdIHjPKc/Vg3SVNJFDJI/AAAAAAAAEMY/CdSnKxus-rU/s1600/IMG_3561.jpg

yup. have you tried braid?

wat

that’s the result of googling this phrase 😄

no, I didn’t try braid

how could I?

ask @rafd for an invite. braid is all about spontaneous threads

OTOH slack is about spontaneity in more stable rooms

and I definitely want a bit more stable room stuff, combined with the spontaneous threads as well

slack by itself could add reactions on reactions and that would be threading too!

Hmmm, I'm just wondering

When I first heard of discourse

I thought

Whoa, that's a great idea for a forum software

But when I look at discourse forums now, they seem... confusing?

And I'm wondering if the same would happen with nonlinear chats.

It sounds great in principle, to be able to contextually reply to conversation

But jumping the mental threads of conversation might be more confusing that way, I think.

someone was just adding a link https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/community-development/p1452703078002145

if you click on it, it highlights the message

Oh

Indeed

HMMM

Actually, this reminds me a bit of how 4chan/8chan presents it's threads

They are flat

But you can respond to specific posts by their numbers and they are displayed contextually when you hover

So the thread primarily stays flat

But you can revisit the context in-place

I think those refs could be hidden in message text when you reply, and shown by the client

I wonder if matrix supports adding arbitrary metadata to the message

btw it seems to me that matrix doesn’t support direct messaging

Like I said, the messages are extensible. Can't find you exact place in spec to quote, but that's what developers said.

I see. In fact, spec says which attributes must present in an appropriate section of JSON, but we can add more

in case server is friendly enough to take care and save them

* Sending and receiving extensible messages in a room with (optional) end-to-end encryption
* Extensible user management (inviting, joining, leaving, kicking, banning) mediated by a power-level based user privilege system.
* Extensible room state management (room naming, aliasing, topics, bans)
* Extensible user profile management (avatars, display names, etc)

let me know if/when someone wants to start putting together a matrix server like we did for http://mattermost.clojurians.net

That's introduction to the standard though

But I guess it's trustworthy enough.

Looks pretty easy to set up with docker - https://github.com/silvio/docker-matrix

we just need to ask @gjnoonan and he has the devops chops for this

they even have an oldschool deb package http://matrix.org/packages/debian/

@meow: Can you send me a message and catch me up with what I've missed in the last few days please, got called away on business last minute.

Docker is probably better for languages like Ruby or Python though.

You don't want that kind of dependency hell in your system : V

@gjnoonan: you missed today's matrix hype for example.

@jaen: docker is better for everything 😉

Yep

@gjnoonan: I can try, but, like, a shitload of stuff has been happening and it might take me 3 days to catch you up and in the mean time ... 😈

lol

I mean, with Java you can sorta get away from that, with uberjars and whatnot.

But with Ruby? No dice.

I would still wrap a Jar in a container for deployment.. but that's another topic. I will set up matrix

@meow: Short and skinny version of any breakthroughs?

Yeah, sure, I can see benefits of that even with jars.

#C0J20813K development is moving along amazingly well

I figured out how to survive while subscribed to all 198 slack channels

matrix effort are shaping up nicely

I've said fuck a lot in public and haven't been banned ... yet

that's about it

working on some tooling with @micha for clojars and could use some help with that

@jaen: was there some chat room where we can talk w/ the matrix people?

> and haven't been banned ... yet I've stareted wondering if that's your endgame : V

let me know about the tooling... see if I can help. I've not heard back from @tcrawley has he been around?

my end game is so :moar: :meta: it would blow your mind unless you were on lsd

@jaredly: well, there are matrix: and matrix-dev: on the Matrix.

And about seven people in clojure: ; d

oh, and mori got forked so it could be maintained because david is too busy

Make that nine.

could use help with that because I don't use mori

@tcrawley: is around but very busy with work

we're talking about the tooling for clojars on #C0H28NMAS

@jaen: do I need to get invited to join a room?

trying to fix problems with atomic commits and metadata.xml files

@jaredly: just register with https://vector.im and then in the left bottom corner you have "Directory".

You can find the rooms there.

ah yes

lots of easy to fix clojars issues if anyone can help: https://github.com/clojars/clojars-web/labels/ready

those are the ones marked as ready to be worked on - much 💌 for anyone who helps.

Will have a look

you rock

server to put matrix on is spinning up

and this is how we get shit done

what color should we paint that matrix

binary

binary colour, that is.

oh, yeah, some great, great content has been contributed to the hackpad so be sure to look at that

http://mattermost.clojurians.net is a 👻 town but has great content we left behind

Aye I will leave it running as long as we need it

right there is a mattrix homeserver and http://vector.im client running

just waiting for DNS to propagate

PS can I register on that mattermost thing as to see how it looks?

@gjnoonan: right there means http://matrix.clojurians.net or some other subdomain?

> http://matrix.clojurians.net has address 178.62.25.233

https://matrix.clojurians.net/ actually shows something

I’m trying to use http://vector.im, but creating an account with http://matrix.clojurians.net doesn’t work

> There was a problem processing the response.

@gjnoonan: do you need something from me?

@be9 I'm currently driving home from work.. I will look into it when I get there

I suppose it’s due to the SSL cert

@tcrawley: just wanted to chat about the "Clojure foundation" and fundraising you mentioned briefly last week, both to see what I can do to help, and if there's anything we can do that is mutually beneficial to clojars and clojurians. Feel free to pm me :-)

@be9 @gjnoonan might be something w/ the ssl certificate

tough love:

While I am eager to experiment with new approaches to communication apps I think maybe this is not the right problem to solve for us as a community right now. Most of our ideas are not validated and might result in a big mess.

all I hear is fear - that belongs in the concerns document, not the lead to a solutions document, imo

I hope this document gets better

I feel like saying "please fix or remove that document" but I won't

the judge rules in favor of the defendent - you are free to go - the developers failed to make a reasonable case

😞

fwiw, I read through the matrix protocol, and it looks super awesome + I think it would meet our needs. I’m definitely in favor of leveraging that protocol so we can spend out efforts on making a great experience

@meow: how’s that https://hackpad.com/The-case-for-Matrix-xRXYSO9zpyh ?