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#clojure-uk
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2017-12-08
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dominicm08:12:18

I spent last night hacking on the schema underlying protocols in order to shift an error message location from the base to a particular key, so it could be programatically consumed later. The schema api is so confusing.

thomas09:12:19

moin moin morning

guy09:12:22

morning!

thomas09:12:20

yeah: ❄️

yogidevbear10:12:26

Thinks "I really need to remember to buy my super early bird ticket for ClojureX 2018 before the end of today"

thomas10:12:16

@yogidevbear you can set reminders in Slack!

yogidevbear10:12:43

Yeah, I know 😉 Was setting extra backup reminders in the form of human beings

dominicm11:12:29

I am curious, as someone who hasn't followed this hard irish border thing, how do we ensure that we're going to stop people from moving things from Republic of Ireland -> North Ireland?

iaint11:12:25

my understanding is we're not. the implications of that being that we will remain, to all intents & purposes, in the customs union & probably the single market

iaint11:12:01

overnight we seem to have flipped from pursuing the hardest of hard brexits to the softest of soft ones

dominicm11:12:38

Interesting. I suspect there will be many unhappy people about that I guess?

dominicm11:12:53

Are there any other countries in europe with borders against non-EU countries? How do they handle this problem?

thomas12:12:00

from what I have read though is that the whole of the UK is out of the CU and the SM...

thomas12:12:32

and I once read a story about the poland/belarus border, multiple miles of lorries queued up.

jasonbell12:12:45

The last thing the DUP want is a border down the sea as that implies an all Ireland.

thomas12:12:54

but no idea how it is suppose to work.

jasonbell12:12:22

@dominicm Cyprus still has the Greek/Turkish border but it’s not as enforce as it used to be.

jasonbell12:12:45

I was warned if I crossed it and my passport was stamped then I wouldn’t be getting back to the hotel.

jasonbell12:12:05

Fast forward a few (well quite a few) years and there’s open top bus tours.

iaint12:12:34

Norway/Sweden is the interesting one. Norway isn't in the EU, but it's in Schengen, so it's effectively an open border. I've seen quite a lot of the more serious commentators on Twitter this morning saying that the Norway model seems to be the closest to the one the UK is now aiming to adopt

iaint12:12:40

presumably we won't be joining Schengen, though ...

thomas12:12:36

But Norway follows all the EU rules AFAIK, but doesn't have any influence on making them (and pays into EU budget)

thomas12:12:54

that is something Brexiteers wouldn't accept I think

thomas12:12:54

looks like the UK says it will follow the EU rules by making their own that are the same... or something like that :thinking_face:

thomas12:12:46

Je ne comprends pas.....

dominicm12:12:13

Sounds to me like we're becoming norway. Which is a great country, but if they're following the EU rules, but without the say, I don't really understand the Norway position tbh. Why do they stay out of the EU? Is there a non-social reason?

mccraigmccraig13:12:57

i think there was a referendum @dominicm and the no-join side won

dominicm13:12:26

@mccraigmccraig Their position is more similar to ours than I thought then.

dominicm13:12:46

Okay, I'm off to the bookies. I'm putting my money on "We're going to have a relationship like Norway does with the EU"

thomas13:12:45

I don't understand why the UK would want to give up all the influence they have in the EU and not help making the rules.

thomas13:12:50

and just follow them.

guy13:12:37

The answer is probably similar to why was trump elected

dominicm13:12:37

That's the part I don't really get. I can't find a benefit for following without influencing? Particularly if you're still paying in.

thomas13:12:26

neither can I.... and I doubt a Brexiteer can explain it.

mccraigmccraig13:12:27

presumably being able to make your own trade deals at the same time as accessing the single market would be a benefit ?

thomas13:12:42

if that would be possible yes...

thomas13:12:18

but if that is the case... why would anyone be part of the CU/SM?

thomas13:12:08

Customs Union/ Single Market

mccraigmccraig13:12:53

well, CU/SM only relates to europe... there is the rest of the world too, and (having no idea if it would be legally possible) it would perhaps be advantageous for the UK to have a UK specific trade deal with some specific trading partners, say the US ?

guy13:12:35

To me its a complex problem where you need to be a domain expert to make the call. The part i don’t understand is why did the government think that the general public had the expertise to make such an important decision.

dominicm13:12:01

@mccraigmccraig See, that's an actual reason 😄. Although I'm surprised that the single market precludes you from making additional deals of your own.

thomas14:12:29

I think the reason is that in the SM there are standards, and to trade with the SM you need to comply with those standards. if (for instance) the UK had a deal with the US in addition to the SM then goods that don't comply with the SM could come into the UK (because they are OK with in the UK/US deal) but then they could be shipped onwards into the SM. chlorinated chicken being the example du jour.

thomas14:12:52

that is my understanding of it at least (and I am no expert what so ever)

jasonbell14:12:24

At this point a startup founder would be say, “this is the perfect use of #blockchain give me a squillions pounds in funding”

thomas14:12:04

@jasonbell maybe you should do a third talk about Onyx... just to make it complete. 😉

thomas14:12:12

you own trilogy!

thomas14:12:29

Onyx. In three acts.

thomas14:12:18

like a classis Shakespeare.

thomas14:12:22

this time we had all your problems with it... next year it should be about your triumph and how you made Onyx do everything you wanted it to and much more. no pressure

jasonbell15:12:59

Alas poor Onyx I knew him well…..

yogidevbear16:12:29

ClojureX 2018 ticket purchased

yogidevbear16:12:44

It had nothing to do with Jade and Onyx troll

yogidevbear16:12:43

Out of curiosity, how many people here are active on https://clojureverse.org/ ?

practicalli-john16:12:04

I wrote a quick post of just a few of the highlights from ClojureX (there are far too many highlights for just one article). I think we have set the bar very high for 2018 http://jr0cket.co.uk/2017/12/ClojureX-conference-2017-sharing-the-experiences-of-the-community.html

yogidevbear19:12:39

@seancorfield What are the chances of getting you over to the UK for ClojureX next year? 😉

seancorfield20:12:49

@yogidevbear We are planning to visit (what's left of the) family some time in 2018 but it's likely to be in the first half of the year and we won't be able to afford two UK trips. The cat club in Shanghai that Jay judged for in October has invited her again (twice? three times?) in March/June and they have asked her to bring me along on one of those trips -- so that's an expense we'll also have.

seancorfield20:12:56

It would certainly be cool to attend ClojureX next year tho' and if it looks like we would be coming over later in the year, I could aim for early December 🙂 Would love to meet a bunch of the UK Clojurians!

yogidevbear20:12:29

I reckon that's a good place to meet a large chunk of the UK crowd

yogidevbear20:12:34

You're always welcome to the Horsham FP meetup group 😉 I've arranged an initial meet and greet at The Black Jug for two weeks time to plan what we're going to do for our very first official meetup in January

yogidevbear20:12:43

Feeling pretty excited about it

seancorfield20:12:33

I'll keep you posted on our travel plans -- I'd be happy to attend a Horsham FP meetup if it happened to coincidence with one of our visits 🙂

yogidevbear20:12:58

I can arrange for that to happen 😇

seancorfield20:12:13

Color me shocked... 😆

yogidevbear20:12:57

So does Clojure 1.9 required Java 9 or can it run on Java 8?

otfrom20:12:33

Java 8 is fine

seancorfield20:12:56

We're running it in production on Java 8 (well, RC2 is in production right now).

yogidevbear20:12:32

I was just reading the blog post on the official 1.9 release

yogidevbear20:12:39

Am I understanding this correctly? If I was on Linux or Mac, I could install Clojure 1.9 which would give me a cli tool (much like using lein on Windows)?

mccraigmccraig20:12:50

lein works perfectly well on linux & mac too @yogidevbear!

yogidevbear20:12:01

Yes, I know 🙂

mccraigmccraig20:12:45

oh, what were you referring to then ?

yogidevbear20:12:39

1.9 release notes mention the cli tools

yogidevbear20:12:58

My understanding is that you can only get this on Linux or Mac at present

practicalli-john09:12:58

You get a Clojure REPL and a bit of dependency management. So you can do the very basics of Leiningen. It's a long way from being Leiningen for projects, although the deps.edn configuration is interesting. I'm assuming a bit of evolution in build tools for Clojure over the next few years... with Leiningen or Boot as the choice for most for a good while longer.

yogidevbear20:12:34

So I'm trying to understand if it is "essentially" the same as me using Leiningen (on any OS - I just happen to be on Windows)

mccraigmccraig20:12:36

dunno - can you point me at a reference... were you meaning these notes - https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md ?

yogidevbear20:12:40

In particular that last link

dominicm20:12:06

I suppose this means that deps.edn is stable.

dominicm20:12:43

which I think is an interesting development.

dominicm20:12:21

I was a little concerned about the format after seeing https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/TDEPS-12

seancorfield20:12:33

@dominicm I think the format will see accretive changes -- which would suffice for TDEPS-12 -- but probably nothing breaking at this point.

dominicm20:12:25

@seancorfield I'm not entirely sure how to solve TDEPS-12 without seeing a data shape change.

dominicm20:12:44

I guess LHS could take more than symbols in the futrue.

seancorfield20:12:47

@yogidevbear They don't (yet) have a Windows CLI script. I expect it to come at some point but they'll need to consider what options are available for Windows developers (I suspect the Linux shell script runs on Mac and would run on WSL but haven't tried that).

seancorfield20:12:17

@dominicm It looked like just adding an optional :classifier key would address that? Did I misread?

seancorfield20:12:39

Frankly, re: Windows, I just do all my Clojure dev work in Ubuntu via WSL.

dominicm20:12:41

@seancorfield You can't have the same key multiple times though.

yogidevbear20:12:49

Hmmm, I didn't think to try the linux script on WSL :thinking_face:

seancorfield20:12:53

Namespaced keys then.

dominicm20:12:33

@seancorfield Yeah, the keys will need to be extensible in some way.

dominicm20:12:09

@seancorfield it couldn't be namespaced, as you'd end up with double namespaces in the case of even org.clojure/clojure would be org.clojure/clojure/aot or something. I'm wondering if there will be something like {[org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/classifier "aot"}] {}} maybe

seancorfield20:12:58

@dominicm Ah, guess I didn't read the issue deeply enough then. Still, I suspect they'll find a way to do it that doesn't break existing tooling 🙂

dominicm21:12:21

I suspect so, I personally can't think of a pretty way to solve it though.

dominicm21:12:33

Not without going from a map to a collection