“Vanilla JS” isn’t as vanilla as you think… And moves just as fast in many cases…

if you don't tap into funny stuff then regular things have hardly changed in 20 years though 🙂

i've been observing

@U05224H0W I think I remember you having a strong opinion against custom HTML elements. Is it still the case, or maybe something has changed?

i like https://lamdera.com/ for my “one stack for hobby projects”

You can't redefine custom HTML elements, so if you get it wrong, there's no hot reload. That's the biggest issue for me, a least...

yeah same here. development with these sucks IMHO.

> build tools are no longer needed

thats just nonsense. you'll still want a build tool for proper optimized build regardless of technology used. things are always going to be much less efficient without a build tool. of course you can do it but it is never gonna be competitive

I'm just a n00b sailing a <small>boat</small> in the stormy CSS... ¯\(ツ)/¯

I knew there had to be a catch. Thanks for pointing out the tradeoffs! 🙏

I'm currently using the layout system taught by "Every Layout", for a small website project: https://every-layout.dev/ They seem to like custom HTML components a lot. I haven't tried those yet, because I'm getting by fine with composable CSS (for now, at any rate).

I'm not to intrested in dicussing the hyperbolic claims being made. But here are some specific questions. > jspm provides a module CDN and package management for import maps, allowing > any package from npm to be loaded directly in the browser fully optimized without further tooling sorry, isn't that something the NPM ecosystem can do now?

Like, "without further tooling" just sounds like "via another tool" without telling me how to compare them.

On "custom html elements" > If you were assembling pages from HTML fragments, using a framework or a templating language, there's no longer any need. You can do it right in the browser with custom elements. It's supported in https://caniuse.com/?search=web%20component, as a standard, so there's nothing to set up or configure. I would still rather build my application using a fully featured language like clojurescript. Or someone would have to explain how your going to, for example, map over your html elements and inject some new bit of functionality polymorphicly into in each one.

I’m definitely in the same proverbial boat as you @U051MHSEK; lately I’ve been following the developments in HotWire and HTMX closely as they seem like good solutions for people suffering from “framework fatigue” 😉 The basic idea is to send incremental HTML updates to the client instead of rendering it client-side (which is the same as concept as Phoneix LiveView and PJAX/Turbolinks before that). This means the client only needs a minimum of JS, and the experience should (at least in theory) degrade gracefully for people not running JS. Might be worth a look? https://world.hey.com/dhh/the-time-is-right-for-hotwire-ecdb9b33

> https://htmx.org/docs/#introduction > Htmx is a library that allows you to access modern browser features directly from HTML, rather than using javascript. Which is better how? Is it faster? Its certinally not simpler, real application logic needs a full programming langauge thats why i write my html in clojure not the other away around.

to my knowledge, if we want to use the browser os we have javascript and web assembly. Maybe this the later? But either way i think the idea of making it look its a good idea to do requests in html attributes is ... completely orthogonal to real progress in the space? Happy to have someone jump in and steer me in a different direction.

I would defiantly be interested in using that if I didn't have a background in all the tools i do however.

> people suffering from “framework fatigue” 😅 At the moment, I'm framework ignorant. As far as I can tell, Jamstack, Hotwire, XYZ are just old wine in a new bottle. For any nontrivial web programming, I would of course want a good programming language (I wonder where I can find one 😉), and a solid build system.

Noice ... DreamWeaver is still a thing https://www.adobe.com/in/products/dreamweaver.html