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continuing here about hourly wage discussion


...continued from #remote-jobs


yeah I was not expecting to hire anyone from more developed countries


@dm3 yes that's western/north. I come from Italy and live in Finland, so that's my experience :)


if I would live in Romania, I would only have to pay 20% of taxes. Which means of that 20EUR leaves 16 EUR


I suppose Clojure is relatively a more popular language among high-paid workers


some people are still in college though


unfortunately my budget is fairly limited


and $20/h on the side which they probably won’t bother paying tax on is still good 🙂


so say with 30 hours billable per week, it will leave me 2000 euro in Romania


I know someone who did remote work without paying taxes, did everything via Paypal. And had his Paypal account blocked by tax authorities with quite a large amount of money on it.


the nice thing about being able to use Clojure with spec is that I can write a fairly tight spec for some main functions, so that writing the rest of the code is more of a fill-in-the-blanks type of exercise


so that's why it would be a shame to go with Java or another language, and I suppose the Clojure programmer would finish the task a lot faster


luxbock, thats not how programming works in my experience


if you wrote the spec, you allready did 80% of the work


My point here is that I don't get why someone would do some work for 20/h when they can get atleast 3x


perhaps I should have mentioned that then, that's basically what I meant with "familiarity with spec", though I now see how that part was confusing


If you don't have budget you can: - do the work yourself - get more budget


I’m not defending any bad practices 🙂 btw, is it that easy to find Clojure work in your experience? I know people who have been looking for months in EU


dm3 my strategy is do work for small companies that just need a solution for their problem for which I use Clojure. It works for them, and they are happy


most stuff is database + web/app frontend. and I found that using firebase, auth0, reagent, re-frame just perfect for building these small business solutions


I have never hired anyone nor worked as a salaried programmer, and I could find very little information for what the range of compensation is for freelance type of work


I saw on Upto a few people were taking jobs for $30/hr doing Clojure


luxbock if you get someone cheap do you work, they might take 2x as long


which still makes 60$ per hour


the lower you go, the harder it is to get someone who’ll get you a quality product


if you have a very well-specced problem the risk is minimized


so I’d just let the ad hang for a day or two depending on your deadlines


Being based in Germany I would never consider working for that rate. However of course there are many regions in the world that are less wealthy and have a way lower cost of living. $20-30/h seems like it could easily be a sustainable hourly rate in many countries. So if you find a developer there you might have a win-win match.


Clojure / Clojurescript has high demand vs supply which makes it almost impossible to find someone for a low rate


I live in Romania, it might be possible to find someone in the 50-100 range. I don't think there are that many Clojure programmers to choose from.


In my experience, the people doing Clojure are quite motivated and genuinely interested in programming. You'd probably have better luck getting lower rates with PHP/Java, a larger pool of people who aren't very motivated to learn outside of what they're taught in school.


yeah it really wasn't my intention to make people upset, but even the lowest range of what the hourly rate people here are quoting would be a massive where I live


@luxbock that is what I was aiming at with my post above. It might be worth investigating other markets and not be discouraged by the prices in Europe, the US, etc. If you can find Clojure developers in those more affordable markets? No idea tbh


there is a reason why outsourcing is done from wealthy countries to less wealthy countries and not the other way around 😉


I don't think people are upset (I'm not anyway), just adding my experience so you can have realistic expectations.


(btw I am by no means a “fan” of that situation, it is a complex issue though and even as I would hardly ever recommend outsourcing it still might have a positive impact on actually distributing wealth more evenly.)


thanks for sharing @danielstockton also from my side. are those common rates in Romania for programmers in general? Or are they on the higher end because they are specifically describing Clojure devs?


It's the higher end because very few people know Clojure and those that do can likely find work abroad. You might find as low as 20 or 30 for other more common languages.


alright, thanks again. I was a bit surprised because 50-100€/h would cover the bulk of freelance developer rates in Germany quite well too from my experience


nblumoe: It's probably skewed towards the lower end of that range as well, I just took the extremes.


sure fair enough. there is always more to that data than a simple range!


are there other websites besides Upto where I might find Clojure freelancers?


luxbock, try changing your strategy. You are probably not going to find Clojure programmers for the rate you are looking for. Instead make a value proposition for people helping you with your project. Is there a way by which people can help you with your project and benefit from it ?


My take on it is that people shouldn't be "upset", they should simply politely decline, or not respond to the offer if it's too low. Life is too short to be angry over a low paying job offer that you're not required to pay any attention to.


I would never work for an amount that low, but there may be someone who is just starting out that wouldn't mind taking that job provided that she or he gets a good reference out of the deal.


working for a good reference is not a good thing


It’s terrible for the market


maybe this is a strange opinion: there are no labor unions for programmers that protect against exploitation so we have to take care of each other. When I see companies trying to save costs by exploiting people I won't look away.


It’s complicated for programmers because it’s less of a commodity than most unionized industries.


it will change, in the future there will be more programmers


I’m hoping in the future programmers are thought of less like commodity skilled workers like some engineers and more like artisans(artists, architects, etc.)


the word for that in German is "Freiberuf" and I agree that programmers should be seen as such


German has better words


most languages have better more expressive words than english 😄 that's really good for your brain 🙂 i dont know guys maybe you are pros but i'd work for that money i am beginner trying to get into the field


i think the less we force things they happen naturally. less paid jobs - beginners get it quality of service is not awesome but that's what you pay for and beginners get money and most importantly experience


more paid jobs - you pros get those and have fun


maybe i am wrong


@lepistane you may be missing part of the picture 🙂 E.g. when the market thinks “if someone is willing to accept that rate than it doesn’t make sense to pay more"


Even if you’re a beginner you can, and should, ask for more


why not invoicing the full amount and don't invoice the hours that you are using to learn about new tech


oh i understand! thanks for clearing that up 😄 then ye i am on board we gotta keep each others back


Yep, I too believe that we badly need unions in software engineering


this is purely unscientific but my experience is that young programmers especially are an easy pick to be exploited


Young people are in general


interns doing real work for no money, the startup promise where you get 1% shares and do all the work, "crunch time", etc


when I was young I did not have a lot of confidence, my judge of character was not very good and I was way too naive


I made my mistakes when I was young, and I just want to prevent other people of making the same mistakes


The startup promise still seems to be a thing. I’m surprised people are still drawn in by it.


(just been reading the former-Uber folks posts about how toxic that environment is)


that was a disheartening read


I’ve done a few startups over the years but demanded (and got) proper salaries for all but the first one (where I was co-founder so that was my neck on the line).


The VC interviews are just crushingly disheartening 😞


I haven't read it, do you have a link ?


wow, thats really messed up !


I hope this had consequences for Uber


When I was 20, a few months before I started studying, I was taking a full time job as assistance for the gas department of a pretty big bulbs firm (NARVA, if someone recognizes the name). There were three assistance employees like me and the whole team of full timers were 8 people + one guy being in charge of the department. That one guy was a number one asshole. I have to admit, he was pretty fair to us young guys, but there was one full time employer he clearly disliked and he was basically mobbing him all the time. Then came the day when the employee had his family holidays and all of a sudden the boss was grabbing his phone and called the employer. He was telling him to come to work for some stupid reason and that he knew he is about to pay loans for his house and if he did not come he would loose his job. For me this was horrible in several ways and I had a very big insight that is part of myself still today. I swore to myself that day that I would never ever let myself treat like this. There are always two sides of the medal, one guy being an asshole and one guy letting himself treat like an asshole. Heck, I would rather loose my house, my job, everything I have before I loose my pride and self esteem. Thats my standard for myself up to today. Long story short, if you want unions and stand up for people you have to learn to stand up for yourself first.


Of course I also swore to myself I would never ever treat someone like this. Its just something you dont do. Dont be an asshole 🙂


I understand that abuse goes two ways, the person that let's himself be treated like that. But not everyone is strong or in a position to fight


Because of the nature of the power relationship


boss / employee


I've heard so many horror stories about employers. My one rule is if your gut tells me there is something off about the job, don't take it. Even if the money seems great. I may have missed out on some great financial opportunities, but the past 17 years, I have been very happy with my choices.


@mozinator I agree. But I would say every person should at least be able to ask friends / family for help. Maybe its easier for me because of the way I was raised. Maybe its a cultural thing, I dont know.


There are more stories about Uber coming out now, from other ex-employees with similar stories… and it all “fits” with the awful Silicon Valley culture at a lot of these startups I’m afraid 😞