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#clojure-uk
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2018-10-19
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yogidevbear06:10:48

Wonders about high fives... o/\o 💥

thomas07:10:48

and the title should be all emoji's @alex.lynham

alexlynham07:10:35

:thumbsup: 🙂 ➡️ 🚢 💻 eq💵 😄

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thomas07:10:21

and shouldn't the last not be a eq sign ?

Conor07:10:29

Shipping software doesn't necessarily bring you money 🙂

alexlynham07:10:25

@thomas [emojibot]: your pr has been merged (d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e)

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thomas07:10:37

I think the title of the talk would end in '.... for fun and profit'

thomas07:10:45

so maybe the other way round as well?

alexlynham08:10:34

I’m not sure it’s possible to do a recursive emoji title

alexlynham08:10:49

because you’d need a custom emoji for the talk

alexlynham08:10:42

other than parrot or picard-facepalm

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otfrom08:10:14

I'm weak. I know.

practicalli-john08:10:03

It would be done by the time you finished the standup :)

thomas08:10:01

@otfrom live dangerously and die young... 😉

alexlynham08:10:43

it’s better to burn out (your laptop) than to fade away (stay on last LTS)

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practicalli-john09:10:24

I’m joining the People’s Vote March on Saturday. I’m meeting friends at Victoria Station at 11am then heading to Park Lane. Happy to have anyone else join us.

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thomas09:10:17

@jr0cket I'll be there in spirit!

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practicalli-john09:10:37

If you would like some motivation to join us tomorrow, take a look at this short video https://youtu.be/DPfxSEdUtFk

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jasonbell10:10:26

Nothing gives me more pleasure talking about Kinesis latency just after the AWS rep was selling the ML toolset in the talk before......

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danm10:10:57

Ahoy hoy

jasonbell10:10:57

I think I managed to upset (not in order): DBA's (in memory data maps over tradition databases from a convo with @otfrom re Martin Fowler's talk), Python programmers (because, well it was fun to talk about OOM killers from badly designed Python programs), Cloudera (no one really needs the whole platform and AWS (over the Kinesis latency and 5 consumers per shard, can't tune it never never never).

jasonbell10:10:10

I think I did a good job 🙂

3Jane10:10:00

I’m interested in the in memory data maps over traditional databases bit!

mccraigmccraig10:10:13

i think i'd be pretty happy with an event-sourced in-memory model with a nice datalog implementation...

3Jane10:10:09

but, like, persistence/stability?

mccraigmccraig10:10:50

event-sourcing takes care of persistence... and makes it easy to run a bunch of replicas. software / schema updates seem more challenging though

3Jane10:10:05

Hmm. I mean: what happens when nodes go down, or the whatever-is-db runs out of open connections or something.

mccraigmccraig10:10:02

uh, not sure what you mean ? if the app is entirely in-memory fed from a (say kafka) changelog then when a node goes down you route traffic to another in-sync node... and there are no connections, the db is entirely in-memory datastructures

3Jane10:10:49

oh, like that

3Jane10:10:07

but then you have kafka changelog, in which case the in-memory db isn’t really your storage solution, just a cache

mccraigmccraig10:10:47

well, yeah, the real storage solution is kafka and the in-memory db is a view

mccraigmccraig10:10:18

were you suggesting getting rid of kafka too @jasonbell?

jasonbell10:10:58

Ooooh no no no

jasonbell10:10:31

These were just off the cuff comments while talking about Kafka and DeepLearning4J 🙂

jasonbell10:10:40

Which was what my talk was actually about

mccraigmccraig10:10:30

"insult the db weenies all you like, but, whatever you do, don't mess with the kafka weenies"

jasonbell10:10:21

I was the only Kafka weeny. Oh and the CEO of an American company who was a friend.

mccraigmccraig11:10:37

i quite like the shocks you get when you suddenly realise that the way you've been thinking about something forever is somehow wrong or limited... not everybody does i guess

jasonbell10:10:04

The Python programmers boo'd me which was nice. 🙂

yogidevbear10:10:52

You mean like actually heckled you? 🙂

jasonbell10:10:59

I don't buy that a "boo" is a heckle, it's a response 🙂

otfrom10:10:01

yeah, having a persistent event store gives you a lot of freedom (at the trade off of needing to think hard about your other choices, but some of the abominations I've seen in rdbms make me think that we should think harder about our data storage needs)

otfrom10:10:21

I do like the idea that everything that isn't the event store is just an application specific cache. 🙂

3Jane10:10:46

I mean any tool can be used in a horrible way; some are used in a horrible way more often because they’re more accessible, but that doesn’t make them worse, just easier targets.

peterwestmacott10:10:15

but great tools are harder to misuse

otfrom10:10:55

hmm... I'm gonna think about that one as I'm not sure I agree with it, but I think I get what you are driving at (the set of great tools would have to be considered)

3Jane10:10:10

yeah… I don’t agree 🙂 but that’s probably due to a definition of what makes a great tool

danm10:10:52

Powerful tools often give you the power to shoot yourself in the foot (or even blow your entire leg off) if you don't know what you're doing...

alexlynham10:10:38

@jasonbell sounds like you had a fun time then! ^_^

jasonbell10:10:15

@alex.lynham I also slung in "If you're doing less than a billion rows then may I suggest a single Postgres box and SQL"

alexlynham10:10:44

sounds like a talk I would have enjoyed

jasonbell10:10:48

My brief from the organisers was simple, "be controversial"

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danm10:10:05

Most people who think they doing "Big Data", aren't doing Big Data 😉 There's a lot you can do with the regular tools that's easier and possibly faster than the BD tools, unless you're really BD

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alexlynham10:10:30

well these days even terabytes of data is possible on consumer hardware

alexlynham10:10:08

so many enterprise vendors make money by going "your data is big, so big, impossibly big, and your problems are difficult, so difficult, harder than any in the sphere of human experience, and that's why you need..."

alexlynham10:10:42

and generally the people that they're selling to haven't written a line of code in their lives so they're utterly incapable of understanding the domain let alone making a good decision

alexlynham10:10:56

I mean, it's hard enough to do that if you're a current practitioner ffs

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yogidevbear12:10:09

Credit goes to @ben.hammond for sharing this elsewhere... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45913587 Uh, say wat now?! confusedparrot

Ben Hammond13:10:11

I thought the LibDems did a good job of reining in the Tory excesses

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Ben Hammond13:10:23

and were unfairly condemned for it

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Ben Hammond13:10:40

well, look at what's happened since

Ben Hammond13:10:25

He + family are getting out before The Brexit

Ben Hammond13:10:32

all the worse for the rest of us

Ben Hammond13:10:36

I'd still worry about Betsey DeVos trying to steal my children though

Ben Hammond13:10:43

especially if they speak spanish

yogidevbear13:10:56

@ben.hammond Do they speak Spanish?

Ben Hammond13:10:27

well his wife is Spanish, so I'm guessing that they do

thomas13:10:24

I suspect they do, but not 100% certain.

thomas13:10:31

and he speaks Dutch as well (just found a video)

alexlynham13:10:53

thanks to the lib dems we didn't get the snooper's charter on day one, but playing the admittedly somewhat dump counterfactual history game: 1) if they hadn't gone into coalition the tories would not have been able to govern 2) arguably tory win in 2015 would have been less likely 3) fees. fees, fees, fees

alexlynham13:10:50

just for 3, and the brazen lies the lib dems deserve everything they got imo. I'd never vote for them again... 😛

otfrom13:10:56

and extending the hostile environment still happened

alexlynham13:10:05

yeah good point

alexlynham13:10:38

they weren't exactly a pillar of liberalism when theresa may's goons were out checking ID documents in piccadilly gardens

minimal14:10:26

Not to mention austerity which they were for on their own terms “Britain needs ‘savage’ cuts, says Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg (2009)“. And accepting benefit cuts in exchange for a plastic bag tax

practicalli-john14:10:48

Lets not forget that no one wanted to have the UK without a government during a global financial crisis. If the LibDems would be criticised fairly for anything, it is believing that the Conservatives would keep their side of the agreements. Its a sad reflection on our society of how easy some people blame a minor partner in government for everything the Conservatives did. If people had listened to the LibDems and voted for proportional representation, instead of being convinced by the Conservatives that it was too confusing for the electorate, there wouldn't be the mess of government we have now. We might even of had more decent politicians in government by now, however, it seems we have the worse in several decades.

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alexlynham14:10:46

well, rasputin got blamed, y'know? people are harder on the kingmaker than the king

alexlynham14:10:33

but actually iirc there's an actual thing in human social dynamics where groups of people will actively seek to punish say a betrayer, even if the betrayal wasn't the most harmful act

alexlynham14:10:41

it's like an innate social cohesion thing

alexlynham14:10:00

okay, now I've got to go see if I can find where I read that...

practicalli-john14:10:10

It often comes down to people wanting to believe the lies they are told because its a safe space to be in (until its too late to do anything about it).

practicalli-john14:10:25

It will be great to spend a few hours tomorrow on the Peoples Vote march to remind me there are people out there who really care about the future of all the people in the UK (whilst our government only seems to care about fracking and private health company proffits).

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Ben Hammond15:10:10

seems to me that the coalition that we got in 2010 was the only way the numbers could have worked

Ben Hammond15:10:44

the only alternative was months of no government folloowed by more elections

Ben Hammond15:10:03

i'm baffled at how common 'betray' and 'traittor' seem to have become in every day usage

Ben Hammond15:10:16

two words that generally trigger me into losing interest

alexlynham15:10:58

sign o' the times

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alexlynham15:10:49

well, so less glibly; what else is it than a betrayal to 180 on an election promise? Traitor is nastier imo, because it's less about trust and more about in & out groups... but yeh, both problematic

Ben Hammond15:10:38

you can't always not get what you don't want

Ben Hammond15:10:51

sometimes you just get overtaken by events

Ben Hammond15:10:31

its sad that a taste of power sent their grass roots paacking

Ben Hammond15:10:39

they only ever wanted to be a protest party

Ben Hammond15:10:24

Tertiary education is a funny one

alexlynham15:10:17

free education is a hill I'm fully prepared to die on, but each to their own

Ben Hammond15:10:30

I stilll don't understand why it has been made necessary for nursing and policing

Ben Hammond15:10:43

other than to prop up the education industry

Ben Hammond15:10:05

hehe hill to die on there's another one

alexlynham15:10:07

> sign o' the times the times are tense and the language reflects that

alexlynham15:10:21

it's pretty scary tbh

3Jane15:10:01

also ‘terrorist’

3Jane15:10:34

I watched a random thing in cinema recently, MFKZ, I loved how they put a spin on that

3Jane15:10:43

During a shootout in a “black” area, a white assassin with a sniper rifle climbs onto a camper van aiming to kill the protagonist; a reporter sees him and says “Oh, another terrorist… no, wait, it’s a lone gunman!”

alexlynham15:10:25

did you see black klansman? that was brilliant in how it mixed really dark humour with a very serious message

3Jane15:10:53

no but even that short description sounds like it’s 100% my thing so it goes on a watch list

3Jane15:10:54

…do I want to go to a cinema at 23 though >_>

3Jane15:10:12

As in, 11pm. Closest cinema shows it at that time.

alexlynham15:10:05

that was what I guessed you meant but just double checking haha

3Jane15:10:49

I’m also on #clojure-europe I’ll have you know 😎

alexlynham15:10:22

I thought we were on UGT in this channel 😎

3Jane16:10:47

time handling (>_<)ง彡

danielneal18:10:31

Oh man bst ends soon right

danielneal18:10:41

I think a bunch of bugs are heading my way

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dominicm18:10:26

No. They'll be fixed!

dominicm18:10:35

Because time is no longer an hour wrong

3Jane18:10:11

^ these guys code

dominicm18:10:15

I was coding this morning

dominicm18:10:38

I bet British developers create a higher number of time bugs over winter than in summer

yogidevbear21:10:40

This. So this

alexlynham19:10:46

I once had a project

alexlynham19:10:07

where upon discovering misconfigured servers that were in the estate of...a government

alexlynham19:10:15

which shall not be named

alexlynham19:10:16

they went away to see if they could correct them for their equivalent of BST vs DST and then came back with, "oh it turns out, we just use x hours offset from GMT all year round"

alexlynham19:10:01

reminded me of Erik Dietrich's Expert Beginner excuses

mccraigmccraig19:10:29

what sort of insanity is it that allows a system clock to ever be anything other than UTC? that's on the o/s program managers, surely?

flefik21:10:46

did you ever try to dual boot with windows xp and linux/mac os? XP used to set the system clock to local time and there was no way for the other systems to know if it was utc or some other timezone, so if it was an offline device, one of your OSs would have the time wrong half of the year.

mccraigmccraig21:10:10

i never encountered that, i am happy to say

alexlynham20:10:43

I also had a db server once in the Tokyo time zone where the database helpfully coerced any timestamp without Z at the end into Tokyo time, meaning all our timestamps went out by 8 hours

alexlynham20:10:56

had to re-import all the client data from scratch

flefik21:10:47

i was on a project that had dates stored as UTC in the database, but was actually GMT/BST in the application. The previous lead developer used to push a commit twice every year to adjust the new times with +1/-1 hour. When we migrated to UTC/UTC in order to support more time zones we had to scratch our heads a bit as some rows of data had timestamps that could either represent 11pm or 12am if made on the eve of the clock change.

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