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Drew Verlee18:01:30

So far i my job search experience is that their are places that don’t care if you know Clojure (because they feel able to teach) or ones that need senior devs (team leads) that know Clojure. Essentially making a enthusiastic learner of the language particularly not very rewarding.


my guess is that since clojure is a relatively rare language to find that places that do use it are more willing to train people.


if you’re a nodejs-heavy shop you can always find another person who knows javascript if you have a candidate who doesnt

Drew Verlee19:01:27

My feeling, has been that places looking for “clojure devs” are really looking for someone closer to what many would call senior dev or maybe even principle and the focus is much more on that aspect. I’ll put it this way, if your a dev with +5 years experience, your not likely g to take a “intro clojure level job” not where your pay and station is based off your familiarity with a language. At the Clojure Conj, rich asked how many people had less then 2 years and i was like one out of 3 people who raised there hands. He joked it was it was because clojure is for “angry old devs” but i think its because only senior devs can use it in their workplace. Either because they get to make the choice, or because, as i’m getting the sense, their are only openings for senior clojure devs. I mean, this job board isn’t disproving the theory: The lesson, for me, has been enforcing the idea i need to not worry about the PL. Which is a tough thing to say, as i want to believe better tools can help. But the reality seems to be, that you have to get lucky, its not practical to put effort towards getting a job by learning a programing language or targeting it as a way to rank job opportunities. I’m open to different perspectives. Mine is a bit soured by disappointing rejections 😞

Drew Verlee19:01:09

This from the most recent posting in “job”: > • 8+ years software development experience, in any language and tech stack. Any amount of Clojure experience is welcome. If thats the case, i don’t feel the position isn’t even related to Clojure at all.

Drew Verlee19:01:01

I’m not anticipating some easier answer here, i’m just trying to figure out if i have distorted view of the situation and i need to think about it in another way.


I think your observation that most openings for clojure positions are looking for senior devs is both apt and lamentable. For each individual company, that might feel like a good and wise choice, but I think it’s harmful both to them and the industry.


They explicitly say the role is 'Clojure engineer'. So, how is that not related to Clojure? That bit you quote is simply they want a senior type person more than an already 'experienced' Clojure dev.

Drew Verlee19:01:35

@jsa-aerial your right of course, it is related. I apologies for suggesting otherwise. Its personally discouraging as it fights the narrative that people don’t hire for Clojure so the opportunity cost of learning clojure, something i have spent some time doing, doesn’t seem that good.


@drewverlee FWIW we only work with subcontractors who are comfortable with Clojure, sometimes more junior to mid level developers (we are currently working with two folks who fit that description). Unfortunately we are not looking for folks at the moment, but hope to be expanding a bit in the first quarter. I’ll definitely be vocal here when we are looking for folks.


From what i’ve seen (at least in the uk) you get companies that are happy to train you up, you also get companies that are looking for junior developers or senior developers willing to take a pay cut, or some companies that need more senior Clojure developers. I think you have to be in a comfortable position to be able to wait for the right clojure job for you.


I also wouldnt be discouraged @drewverlee you might just need to take a pay cut to get to know the language, then go from there


my first Clojure job was at a start up, maybe thats something you might have to give a go?


I'd encourage anyone struggling to find a Clojure job to work daily, even if just a little bit, on open source, be it a personal project or reusable libraries. There's a huge difference from "is enthusiastic about Clojure" to "hacks daily on it". This can easily have an effect on your initial perception, interview process, and even how you'll get to interact with your colleagues once hired. It's pretty amazing what daily habits can get you with enough perseverance


our services team switched from node to scala, only one of them was proficient with scala and trained the others on it. So i would agree that youre not looking for a “senior clojure dev” but rather a senior dev since it implies an experience level that can be generalized more


im not sure if that got sent twice or not


I’ve always thought you shouldn’t really define yourself as an X developer, but more just a developer. Languages are just tools you can learn and use, rather than be defined by? if that makes sense?


right now im doing a couple side projects in clojure.. hopefully those can start making a bit of money so i dont have to search for a job at some point but we shall see

Drew Verlee20:01:41

It does, thanks for all the advice. I have some projects I need some time to work on. Contributing to open source, in a language your not working in, seems like a high bar though. As you could be spending that energy on one you are.


languages are tools, but I wouldn't say they're "just" tools




just a phrase, meant nothing by it :thumbsup:


I mean, in theory developers can pick up new languages as they have to


but in reality, the investment needed to get someone to have the dev environment, learn the syntax, learn the libraries, learn the best practices/conventions


is pretty big


some languages cough*c++*cough have enough idiosyncrasies to spend an entire career on and still not know them all


but do you need to know them all?


I think for specialist jobs sure


but for your average job you might not


@scriptor i would agree its a big investment, but that is also what you are paid for? Because you can learn it and use that tool. I would say.


As The Pragmatic Programmer says "Learn a new language every year" 🙂




@guy I meant it's an investment on the company's side, which is why they'll often advertise for an "X developer". Especially if they need someone to start producing quickly


> As you could be spending that energy on one you are. @drewverlee True! But then again you can find yourself using a language you don't like for years and years (which is exactly one big mistake I made) If one is lucky enough to find an entry-level Clojure job great, else one always can take charge of his career direction


But, yes, I think you're right @drewverlee that a lot of places hiring for Clojure devs right now are looking for experienced devs first and foremost and Clojure skills second. Which doesn't help junior developers who want to learn Clojure.

Drew Verlee20:01:16

The frustrating part is that we all have different “experiences” I have had trouble communicating topics to lead devs, who dont have time to learn the fundamentals of what i’m trying to convey. So having good idea’s doesn’t seem to help, you have to “prove” your self imo and people have to be able to understand your value. My instinct is that my best use of time is a big open source contribution in the direction i want to go.


it seems hard to get a job as a junior dev in general, though


certain companies, especially larger ones, have enough resources and structure that they can effectively train juniors


most places want things delivered yesterday and if you hire jr devs they dont have the time travel perk yet


but a lot of the smaller tech companies seem more inclined to just get someone to throw at the jira board


@scriptor aha! I see, i agree with what you are saying.


@drewverlee Try — that’s how I started to write Clojure in earnest.