> until I find a Clojurescript library that doesn't rely on React @U0PUGPSFR would like to have a word with you. :D

https://github.com/kennytilton/web-mx includes its own DOM layer, so no need for ReactJS, which we may agree fails at the hard part, state management. #hoplon /javelin eschews React as well. Maybe also others related to htmx, maybe #biff. Mind you, I am immersed in https://github.com/kennytilton/flutter-mx these days. Check out #clojuredart. If you are set on HTML/CSS, this is a play within a play web/mx app about web/mx: https://kennytilton.github.io/web-mx-quickstart/#/ Free onboarding if you are interested. For web/mx or flutter/mx. Flutter is the future, as far as I can tell.

Thanks, I'll check them out. What is it about flutter that you think makes it the future? The Skia renderer?

Actually, one of the more impressive things about Flutter is that they wrote their own renderer, Impeller, to get around issues (unknown to me) with Skia. Flutter is pretty portable from mobile to desktop to web. The web is still sketchy, last I heard, but then I did say "future". 🙂 They also threw off the tyranny of HTML and Javascript and that whole mess. HTML was never meant to do what it is doing today, and it is impressive that it can, but the credit may got to web developers. Flutter went with a clean slate, now right down to the render. The one thing they got wrong was the static-typed Dart heavy OO, but #ClojureDart fixes that.

That makes sense. It's the most promising clean slate I've seen. I've tried to make my own for a game engine project (alas in Kotlin), but for a proper application I wouldn't use it - missing accessibility and stuff. HumbleUI looks like an interesting GUI approach that uses Skia, but only desktop GUI, not mobile and Web.

my feeling is the near-future is WASM, so we go full circle from server-terminal, server-client-desktop, server-browser-static, server-browser-js, to server-WASM, far future: back to server-terminal but fancier