Clojurians Log v2
hyperfiddle 2025-01-28
Is there actual versions for electric v3 alpha or it's only SNAPSHOTS?
Only snapshots. AFAIK this is intentional for the moment - they want to force people onto new versions and to keep bug reports and feature questions all on the same version.
I would still update but it is a must have to be able to rollback and keep working on your stuff if something breaks in the latest release
are you using electric v3 in production today? Nearly everyone is still kicking the tires and messing around
I was contemplating building a new feature with it
Who wrote this comment in https://state-of-clojurescript.com/ https://state-of-clojurescript.com/ ? Thank you!!! > Fulcro was promising but failed to address the root causes of why web dev is hard. As a consequence its complexity exploded. I had to maintain and deal with tech debt in fulcro apps, not a pleasant experience at all. And the productivity wasn’t there. Reframe is fine, being simpler is a good thing in some cases. Electric is so different, in a good way. very promising. I can finally focus on the business cases and get the job done. Current tradeoffs are speed and DX, but its a price I’m willing to pay for the productivity boost. And it keeps improving. I keep seeing odd comments about Electric on the clojurian slack: - "it won’t work, we tried something like this already", - "it can’t work, science says so", - "I don’t get it... is this corba?" I get that people are busy. But this is not worthy of this community. Pay a little bit of attention, there’s something there.
I am so grateful for this comment, because it says something directly, in a way that can now be quoted, that is socially unacceptable for me to say myself
We face so much subtle discrimination of this form from the "old school Clojurist" community
Out of curiosity, does anyone have a sense what sort of “speed” the poster sees as a trade off? I can see multiple interpretations
I want to add some lines 🙂 Clojure is my first choice for almost anything and Electric is my first choice for FE-stuff nowadays. Even if I just use the client part of Electric, it is so much better, than any react, vue or other JS backed application. The function level reactivity with Electric RAII semantics(e/onunmount) enable be to write highly interactive FE applications in a sane and simple way. In React the complexity would skyrocket. And if I have to do work for a client with a traditional tech stack (add your “Enterprise-Ready” labeled ORM solution of your choice here, paired with one of the major JS-Fe frameworks) I always get crazy. What is almost a one-liner in Electric is ~ 50 lines of boilerplate distributed over 10 files in Typescript/Springboot and the result is still crapy. I think: Wtf am I doing here, but everybody around me is thinking, that it has to be this way and that this is the way to go to build a good product. Dustin, you should add a trigger warning to Electric usage 😉 . “This product will harm your ability to work with a traditional tech stack. /s” I agree with Dustins statement about the overhead of all the planing meeting ceremony stuff, which has to be done with traditional tech. With Electric I am so much faster, that it seams ridiculous to spend 4 hours of planing to build a feature that takes a couple of hours. With Electrics insane speed it is feasible to interactively work with your customer because the feedback is so fast.
With electric I look at an app. And eye ball how it works and build it as a prototype, look at feature, implement, look at next, fully db connected. No design, no planning.
We face so much subtle discrimination of this form from the "old school Clojurist" communityI've felt this tendency to dismiss Electric as well. It's weird. We have such an innovative language. Shouldn't therefore Clojure programmers be open to doing things even more innovative development? We criticize developers who dismiss Clojure purely on the basis of that it looks different, without spending an effort to understand it properly. Then, in the same breath, we dismiss Electric because it looks different from the Clojure code we've seen before. I feel like the cross-network reactivity is a jiu-jitsu-move similar to the REPL. It's just so different from what we're used to that we can't picture the ramifications of the change. Keep up the good work, Dustin and team. We need folks like you pushing the boundaries, even if we don't yet understand the value of the new tools!
I concur in general. I got into Clojure for the Lisp promise of higher level abstractions and interactivity without compromise. But now having ground through so much manual data plumbing with the recommended granular, custom, simplicity-first mindset… just for relatively trivial stuff… I have felt a creeping burnt-out and jaded feeling about my personal capacity to implement meaningful or novel stuff (without a lot of time and pain, and proving to myself again that I’m almost not smart enough for this stuff!). That combined with too much analysis paralysis of when/where/what to attempt to glue together, and I have found Clojure to be a very challenging, if also very inspiring environment for me. Projects like Electric are delivering new hope for creative flow. Dustin, I deeply appreciate your expressed empathy here, couched around the terse dialogs of bug fixing and theory proving. And I love it when you can share hot takes like this (when appropriate).
it's just a growth problem:) I think we need more doс, blogs, real-world use cases, best practices and cooking books. Everything will be fine
I chose Clojure because it’s less pain to build the thing I want. I choose electric because it’s less pain to build the thing I want. The alternatives out there is low-level code - roll your own universe. Low-code (in the current industry sense) - you are doing arts and crafts with children’s scissors and glue.
Inspired by @hendrik.levering. Unfortunately can’t read the silly single purpose UI file names for the js with the slack compression