Clojurians Log v2

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set the channel description: Discussion about the annual State of Clojure survey

Hello, I'm prepping the State of Clojure 2020 survey and wanted to get some feedback before it goes live

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hey all

howdy

Question: "What is your primary Clojure, ClojureScript, or ClojureCLR development environment?" Answers from last year are: • Emacs (CIDER, Spacemacs, Emacs Live, inf-clojure, other) • Vim (vim-fireplace, vimclojure, other) • Eclipse + Counterclockwise • IntelliJ + Cursive Clojure • Light Table • Sublime Text • Atom (Proto REPL, other) • VS Code (Calva, other)

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What should I add? What should I remove?

last year's results https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-S9JVNXNQV/

this was Q12

For Atom, can you mention Chlorine explicitly please? It's actively maintained but ProtoREPL is essentially dead at this point.

so should it say "Atom (Chlorine, other)" ?

Yup.

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are there others? does anyone still use Proto REPL?

possible to separate CIDER from other non-CIDER versions? I know Stu and some others use emacs without CIDER.

does it matter?

A few, but only with older versions of Atom and several plugins, since ProtoREPL was broken by updates in those and no one is around to fix it.

to get a sense of how many people use inf-clojure. but not a huge deal

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my general intent with this question is to provide a resource for people looking to find an editor and knowing where the crowd is. I don't know that CIDER vs not-CIDER is anywhere near as important as Emacs vs not Emacs

we used to have them split out and I found it was more confusing than useful

fair. should light table be removed? I understand its completely unmaintained and quite out of date

Light Table and Counterclockwise were both <1% last year so I'm planning to remove those

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does that list of Emacs choices cover the major players?

looks good to me

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As an emacs/spacemacs user I can't say I've heard of Emacs-Live, is that something that has any significant takeup?

no idea, that's why I'm asking

i've heard of it. its a config that's keyed towards Clojure. might be useful for a beginner

Nightcode & the oakes stack?

things not on the list, possibly to add: Nightcode, IntelliJ w/ clojure-kit, Conjure, Neovim w/ Acid

those all had a few mentions in "Other" last year, but not enough that I would expect them to be >1%

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There’s https://github.com/mogenslund/liquid. I’m not sure anyone would use it as their primary editor, but I do have the sense that it’s sometimes used as a complementary one.

Are the Vim options still a good list? vim-fireplace, vimclojure, other

REBL?

put REBL as a separate yes/no question?

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prob not worth it. every question makes the survey longer and reduces the number of respondents so I'm going to resist adding new stuff if at all possible

Ok, next topic...

REBL usage would be nice to see -- but it's an add-on to any existing editor/REPL setup, not a replacement.

I wonder if Socket REPL vs nREPL is worth asking?

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if you magically knew the answer, what would you do with the information?

Fair question. I don't think it's actionable but I do think it would be interesting to see how much uptake either of those have (REBL, Socket REPL).

I think I have a sense of REBL from the Patreon/issues/traffic

I could see socket/nrepl being of interest to @cfleming but not sure who else (but maybe he knows that answer already)

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Q17 What tools do you use to compile/package/deploy/release your Clojure projects? Answers: clj, Leiningen, Boot, Maven, Gradle, Ant, make, custom scripts

What's missing? What should be removed?

@alexmiller Can you share the REBL usage sense you have? (since it sounds like it won't go into the survey).

well you use it :)

Q17. Given the breadth of packaging tools for clj, is it worth separating some of those out as individual options? (I don't feel strongly about that, just a suggestion). Otherwise, that list sounds good to me.

like the IDE one, I'm trying to get a big picture feel (doing a separate clj-focused survey at some point might be interesting)

so trying to get the "families"

ant was at 0% last year so going to finally remove it :)

this question is on the "Clojure" page too so it omits some cljs possibilities (that's a separate question)

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lots of people put shadow-cljs in the comments for this one, not sure how best to communicate clojure-ness here

always a bunch of Ansible here too, not sure if that makes sense

like maybe the question needs different wording here

maybe I should remove "deploy"

For Q15, will 1.10.1 and 1.10.0 be separate options? Or will you just ask about the overall version? (1.10 vs 1.9 etc)

Shadow-cljs is listed in Q22 -- I'm surprised it was "lots" in Q17. Maybe add "(not ClojureScript)` to the question? :)

@alexmiller thought about separating compile/package from deploy/release? that's probably why there is a lot of Ansible in the responses

and I see you said that in the scrollback 🙂

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yeah, maybe it's time to tease this apart a bit more. It could be a matrix question too with tool / use dimensions

I'm not even sure what the right set of options for "deploy" is but maybe that's a good signal of needing more info

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deploy has multiple meanings -- we talk about deploying systems to production but we also talk about deploying JAR files to Clojars/Central (and probably other meanings too?)

I think I'd start with a) what are the right verbs? and b) what are the right nouns? (with the anticipation of maybe changing the whole approach based on the answers)

yeah, lib vs app are different domains

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for libs, I'm interested in knowing whether you make an artifact, how you make it, and how you put it somewhere for people to use

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I think it would be good to get some statistics on OS usage: Linux, MacOS, Windows, other - maybe split into: local dev environment / production environment

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some common answer sets: • (for clj git deps): no artifact, n/a, git repo • (for Maven artifacts): jar, Leiningen/boot/clj, Leiningen/boot/clj, clojars/s3/deps.co/? • (for cljs libs): shadow?, shadow? buck?, npm?

still not sure I even have the right set of dimensions here, but I think this set of questions could be replaced with something more interesting/useful

and be more concrete about library vs apps make it able to have more interesting concrete options

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Candidate verbs of interest: • manage dependencies ("manage" is weak) • compile (I assume this is mostly for apps and in tandem with packaging, so maybe should not be included) • run tests • package (create an artifact - jar, war, vm package, cloud template ?) • release library (make a version of a library available for use) • deploy application

stepping away for a few, feel free to comment on that

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I think it would be interesting to see Clojure and ClojureScript as separate server side languages.

The survey is already partitioned into Clojure-specific, ClojureScript-specific, and common sections...

he means in the server-side language used with cljs question

I assume

Yes.

I can break those out. I have no idea what that breakdown would be

Ah, gotcha.

Q21 gives a partial sense of that, separating Browser from Node.js?

I think just having Clojure and ClojureScript as separate options on Q20 would do it.

I guess Q21 includes some small group of folks using cljs only on the backend, no frontend...?

Also, I am sometimes using Nashorn as my CLJS REPL, so maybe that should be a an option for whatever Q asked about that.

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I may have missed this, but is there a draft of this we’re looking at while discussing?

We are looking at the 2019 survey. Posted in the start of this channel.

Ok, thanks.

Is Q11 useful information for anyone? It seems like that might inform the development of Clojure itself, but it’s mostly asking about things which are done now.

Re: editor choice, it’s tricky. In general, I tend to think that Emacs vs non-Emacs is the main interesting question, but I’m not sure the same is true of e.g. Atom. Thinking about it, I tend to have a view of Emacs as a homogeneous environment which is clearly not true despite CIDER’s dominance.

I don’t think that clojure-kit warrants a separate question, especially if there’s an Other option which can be filled in manually. I follow their repo so I see all their issues, and there’s very little activity.

It would be nice if it were possible to have a series of checkboxes or a radio button associated with each option, so selecting Atom would allow you to choose between Chlorine, Proto-REPL or whatever.

which one is Q11?

It'd be interesting to have a free-response question about libraries -- something like "What non-core libraries do you use most?" or "What third-party libraries are most critical for you as a Clojure/Script developer?". I think the answers would be useful for Clojurists Together, and would be useful to the community in helping less community-involved folks keep up with the critical ecosystem as new parts of it emerge. That said, I realize that free-text questions are a pain in the ass to deal with 🙂

@cfleming mentioned a good point. "how many people use clj-refactor". Maybe make this a bit more broad and check static analysis tools? clojure-lsp, clj-refactor, joker, clj-kondo, cursive

In Q23 I’d like to know how many people are using figwheel main and how many are using figwheel classic.

Also, there’s only an option for “ClojureScript’s browser REPL”, but it also has REPLs for node.js, nashorn etc. There’s probably a whole spectrum of potential information to be teased out here, but I don’t know how to ask the right questions for “I use the node.js REPL for server side code but the browser REPL is too hard to set up”.

Q24 should include Shadow as an option.

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@cfleming on Q23, I'm wondering if asking this question in a different way would help make it more useful. Something like "What tools do you use for interactive ClojureScript development?" with multi select