https://github.com/arachne-framework/architecture/blob/master/adr-014-project-templates.md This seems like the same direction that the untangled template is moving to 🙂

@mitchelkuijpers exactly

for the stated reasons even

Nice, those are good reasons. I love the way Arachne is developing

Can I draw attention to the question I asked yesterday? 🙂

@kauko have you seen this page?http://untangled-web.github.io/untangled/guide.html#!/untangled_devguide.A_Introduction

@kauko The points you listed are the main ones, in addition there are a wealth of convenience functions that you’ll be able to leverage to work with the idioms introduced by Untangled. I don’t think a direct feature comparison would be appropriate, since Untangled fills in gaps in Om next, rather than taking an alternate approach.

@kauko Untangled is Om Next, just with a lot of the stuff you'd have to write pre-written. There are some minor trade-offs, but the alternatives are more risky/costly at runtime (e.g. using Datascript as the UI database) and require a lot more complicated overall application.

The thing you found on the site is exactly it. You get all the advantages of Om Next without having to write all that stuff.

Ah, I've actually seen the tutorial @mitchelkuijpers, but I didn't remember that one paragraph 🙂

Plus we add in i18n, some solid decisions around how to do the interactions with the server etc.

Hmm, I wonder if the part if copy-pasted, and the "How is Untangled related to Om" from the tutorial, should be at the home page? I'm sure there's a bunch of people who are thinking of using Om and find Untangled, and what to know what exactly it offers. I feel like the clojure community is probably pretty anti-framework.

The material sells untangled really well, but I feel like it doesn't really answer the question of what exactly it adds. Or does.

Thanks for the answer Tony, btw 🙂

@kauko I've been wanting to rewrite the home page. Just another thing on the TODO list. Part of it is exactly for that reason. I feel like we should at least have a prominent blurb pointing to an "Untangled for those interested in Om Next" kind of page.

Nothing I can do about the allergy to frameworks, other than point out that cobbling together a bunch of libraries has its own costs. I agree with the sentiment to a point, and try my best to keep dependencies to a minimum...but if you're trying to do RAD, Om Next will cost you months of startup time before you're really moving, and I doubt you'll end up with something significantly different from Untangled. It's not that people don't want frameworks, it's just that it is really hard to make a good one that doesn't end up sucking 4 months after you adopt it.

The nice thing about the Om Next model is that it turns out you don't have to go out of your way to make cool things happen, and the resulting code is really compact. So, in the case of Untangled you get immediate benefits, but overall your application could drop Untangled without a ton of pain (e.g. you'd just have to write the plumbing layer...which is what you'd have to do if you don't use Untangled). We don't change how you build with Om Next overall.

The load functions are also something you'd have to figure out. Again, decide you don't want them, write your own technique...but you'll basically just re-invent a similar mechanism.

I can see you've thought about this a lot. Great! 😄 It's fun to see I wasn't completely off with my feelings on the intro. Like you said, the framework wariness is not something you should concern yourself with - all any framework can do is document what it's goals are, and how those goals are achieved. And do it's best not to creep to other areas.

Probably the biggest reason people tend to prefer libraries over frameworks is that libraries usually have much better defined boundaries.

But it sounds like Untangled has well defined boundaries

just have to say that out loud 😄

But honestly, the material so far is great. The website, the tutorial, and all the other documentation seems to be of pretty high quality. It's a lot of work that's easy to forget, but it's very important! 🙂

I especially like the videos.

thanks, it is interesting to me how many people like the videos. I tend to be more of a reader myself. Everyone has a different style.

so, trying to fill a bit of all the needs

thanks for the feedback

The videos make me feel like Untangled is an actual thing with people putting effort into it, and not some random nerd's weekend project 😉 😄 I do prefer reading for guides that are more in-depth, but a short introduction video can be really valuable