Clojurians Log v2

If you like to just occasionally skim a channel, the log is perfect for that because every discussion is unrolled while still being organized, e.g. https://clojurians-log.clojureverse.org/beginners/2023-01-03

@p-himik thanks for this!

Maybe you should have started with a first message “I’d like to promote the use of threading discussions on this Slack 🧵” 💪 Jokes aside, I agree with what you say

Maybe you can highlight some threads of which turned out to follow this format in a nice way

> Maybe you should have started with a first message “I’d like to promote the use of threading discussions on this Slack 🧵” I'm new to this, is all I can say. 😃

Do you mean something like this? https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/C7YF1SBT3/p1668762982764179 I’m talking to myself here, but fine by me

You can even search for threads this way “from:@jeroenvandijk 🧵”. That’s a bonus maybe.

Yes, like that. Cool to see I am not the only one. 😃

> I have also started to move details with my own questions into a reply Accidentally read it with "repl" instead of "reply", got surprised. :) But overall feels like people gradually start to use threads more and more.

A repl in here would be quite awesome.

Here's a question I just asked https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/C6N245JGG/p1671006295467309 (which prompted me to write here about this).

I haven’t actively tried to encourage threads in #cursive, but pretty much everyone does it anyway, perhaps because I always do it. I agree that it makes the channel much easier to follow.

I don’t even use the emoji usually, just use the thread directly, I figure everyone knows what the threads look like.

I think the emoji indicates that the message author intended to add more information. Whereas without it can be anything.

So there should be some extra messages of the author after the first one or it loses it value I believe.

Yes, it is while I am writing the details of my question that I think the 🧵 tells that I am at it.

Threads are great and I agree they should be encouraged. For example, we had a https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/C03RZGPG3/p1670435381301719 with over 100 responses about AI - and this would have really disturbed the rest of the channel had it not been in a thread. Also, I've noticed that if a channel uses both threaded and unthreaded conversations - then the threaded conversations can get less attention (because they scroll out of view). But this is less of a problem as the threaded conversation ratio increases.

I am shocked to see a thread like "hey we should use more threads", because my personal experience, being very active in the busiest channels, the minute I step out of line and don't use a thread an admin shows up and complains about not using threads

I am amazed to hear that other people don't use threads and are allowed to about their lives

https://github.com/clojurians/community-development/blob/master/welcome-message.md is the welcome message that is sent to users which already includes verbiage to encourage using threads

I think people have shifted more towards threads in the past few weeks. I used to wander into Clojure or Beginners channel with lower levels of thread usage and it could be overwhelming.

I think people should be allowed to respond as they like, but experience in clojure and beginners is I will get harangued by an admin if I don't use threads. It is not pleasant and not very friendly

I've seen most channels being tolerant of threads and non threads. But I do see that you've had a different experience. I think the original post is just encouraging/advertising a usage rather than suggesting any strong rules.

It is a policy that exists, but is very unevenly pursued, and there is no mechanism to push back against it. Being on the other side of that is no fun

The reason I choose to try encourage this way, asking, and giving reasons and some tips, is so that we can have less of policing from us admins around it. The same reason we've added it to the welcome message, for people who read such messages. As a regular on this slack I try do what @cfleming suggests, just act in the way I want others to act and hope that some will follow. That and the small nudges I mentioned us using in the Calva channel.

Like, in #beginners if I recall, there was a time when someone asked a question, and there had not been other activity in the channel for at least an hour, hardly a deluge, and I responded not in a thread, and now I have a private message from an admin telling me if I don't like the use threads policy, then don't respond to things in #clojure and #beginners and I won't get yelled at

Seems like a reasonable ask to me. Here's hoping you will choose to continue helping in those channels. I've gotten fantastic help from you there, and I have seen that many others too get that treatment.

The whole reason that welcome message was added to the git repo there is because I was getting dinged about not replying in threads, and I didn't remember ever seeing the welcome message and asked if there is a place I could read the 'use threads' policy

You highlighted a missing piece in the communication. It's very easy to miss such things.

I am not against threads, and they are really useful when things are busy, but I am against having a policy where the enforcement is so spotty that many are not aware it exists, but somehow I get told to follow it anytime I respond outside of a thread

I just want to give my two cents that @hiredman gives exceptionally good answers in this slack, and I frequently benefit from, far far more than the negative impact on me if they appear in a thread or not. I'm totally fine with the thread rules and they are probably good to promote. But I do feel that people contributing to quality conversations are what make this community as great as it is far more than threading mechanisms, so I guess what I'm saying is let's just not lose the forest for the trees?

I think it is a good policy to have wether it is rush hour or not. When I go to those channels I start with reading up a bit on what questions have been asked, to learn and to see if there is something I can help answer. That scanning is made much easier by each question being it's own thread. And much harder by conversations being conducted in the channel.

Personally, fwiw, for me, for very low traffic channels I don't care. For higher traffic channels I prefer threads. Some folks don't though, I think #cljs-dev at one point discouraged their use because it made it harder to discover all new messages easily.

So maybe just let each channel express (or not) a thread policy that suits it.

Yeah, it makes sense with threads for questions in support channels, and doesn't make sense for some other situations. So it depends. I missed that context in OP. It's mostly about the Q&A situations I think threads should be the default.

looking over that repo again, I noticed you (@pez) listed as one of the slack's owners. your original message suggesting promoting the use of threads(relatively weak, just encourage the use of threads, set an example of using threads and others will follow) is surprising to me, given how strongly it has been communicated to me by another owner that I must use threads or get yelled at. Like it seems like you (an owner) were not aware that there already was some kind of "use threads" policy for the slack that is being actively enforced.

I am totally behind the thread-please policy in #beginners and #clojure and think that the admin team can and should set the policy for central channels like that. In other cases there is sometimes some kind of channel ”owners” who can make the call for their channels.

The only place I know of where the thread policy is written down, is on that welcome message, which does not mention it being applied to any particular channels

And does not mention a notion of channel owners, and what a channel owner is, and what role they have doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere

Indeed. We have some work to do to bring clarity. I just made ”channel owner” up, btw. I don’t know what is good term for it.

Just my 2 cents: We use thread here at work and it is a must-have imo. There is a lot of conversations flowing around at any point in time and threads help making things "contained". Without threads I would be lost in all the messages, just like I do with Messenger.

I think "threaded Slack" works (particularly for large communities like this one) and I think "threadless slack" also works, particularly for: (A) small teams - where everyone must read everything (B) When something important is happening (e.g. a launch or an outage) and you want everyone aware and seeing the hive of activity. The thing that I think works less well is the hybrid approach: Because threads have little visual prominence in the feed and can be scrolled off the page by new posts, the threads end up as second class citizens and miss out on the attention of a top level post. Have said that, since Slack is designed for the hybrid approach it can creates stresses when a community tries to enforce/encourage "threaded" on "unthreaded" slack instead. Although the stresses may sometimes be worth it for the right outcome.

I know I'm very late to this discussion, but here are my 2 cents: Hiredman has already talked about the perspective of the people helping others, and I agree with it. On the learner-side: While I can highly appreciate the decluttering nature of threads, a significant fraction of my learning-of-Clojure happened by scrolling #beginners and skimming it for a while everyday (for years, since ~2017). By enforcing threading, the "lurk value" of the channel goes down. Of course, one can always click and read threads they find interesting, but I've seen amazing discussions start from seemingly very-mundane threads.