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#off-topic
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2022-08-22
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Noah Bogart11:08:06

This is so cool.

Drew Verlee14:08:00

i'm sorry, i'm i to understand you can know call out to scheme functions backed by .NET libraries in excel?

isak14:08:16

> The Professional edition of Accelerate for Microsoft 365 will target more seasoned or professional developers and enterprise use cases, and it will also offer Clojure as an alternative, mainly focused on microservices and linked-data integration. Clojure is another great, somewhat more modern, Lisp that has a stealthy presence on .NET, and of which most .NET developers are unaware. That is cool. I wonder how they plan to do that.

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Noah Bogart14:08:49

some sort of library for #clr probably, right?

isak14:08:25

Yea. I wonder if they mean a new one, or if they are building on something that already exists. Also, if it will be open source, usable for normal .NET projects.

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respatialized14:08:51

would be nice if there was any kind of pricing information available šŸ˜•

respatialized14:08:16

I'm no EPL expert, so it's also not clear to me whether they can release the Clojure dialect as part of a closed source project like this Accelerate add-on without rolling their own implementation

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Pedja Zolinsky17:08:03

Is Clojure the future of programming 10 years from now? Why is the industry sleeping on arguably one of the greatest programming languages of our time? It seems as if most clojure developers are ex-Java developers, why don't most java developer see the light?

William LaFrance17:08:14

Clojureā€™s been around for 15 years. Iā€™m not sure if thereā€™s anything going on at this particular juncture that makes it ā€œthe lightā€ and the future of programming 10 years from now, any more than Scheme would have been declared the future of programming of 1995 back in 1985. Iā€™m a big fan of using Clojure at work, but I donā€™t consider myself an ex-Java developer or ex-Swift developer. Itā€™s a new tool in my toolbelt. For better or worse, the top 5 languages indexed by TIOBE are Python, C, Java, C++, and C#. Nothing new, nothing exciting, nothing pure functional, and with the exception of Python, all pretty much directly deriving (some through each other as predecessors) from Ken Thompsonā€™s B in 1969.

seancorfield17:08:34

According to https://clojure.org/news/2022/06/02/state-of-clojure-2022 the percentage of Clojurians coming from Java has declined year-on-year and is below 30% now.

seancorfield17:08:00

That said, Java is still the largest "prior language" followed by JavaScript. I think the answer is that the vast majority of Java developers (and JavaScript developers) are "happy" with their tech stack and don't feel any need to invest time and energy learning other tech. Inertia is a big thing for a lot of developers. Many "enterprise" Java developers, for example, are very much 9-to-5 workers -- they code for a living but it's just that. Clojure tends to self-select for people who are motivated to find "something better" and who, often, have already tried several other solutions before settling on Clojure. In addition, Clojure is just too "different" from mainstream (C-family) languages for most people to even consider.

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souenzzo17:08:32

One think that I like in clojure is that the clojure community don't need to be huge. We can use JVM libs, JS libs, move to others VM's and hosts if it is required. Differently from langs like python, that the same community need to develop and maintain all the libraries, the language, the ""VM"", the targets, etc...

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respatialized18:08:25

https://www.unison-lang.org/ I like Clojure a lot and intend to keep using it for a while, but my hope is that any programming language that represents "the future of programming 10 years from now" starts to get us away from the file-and-terminal 1970s programming paradigm. One such language worth looking at is Unison.

respatialized18:08:09

In some ways Unison takes Clojure's emphasis on "everything is just a value/data" and pushes it considerably further, resulting in some very interesting changes to the capabilities of the language and the tools it offers its users.

Martynas Maciulevičius18:08:10

I talked to Scala programmer the other day. He said that he kind of likes golang and also asked me about Rust a little bit. Then I said that we can import golang's channels as a library. He was speechless. This gif pretty much sums it up: https://c.tenor.com/J17LOboDYoAAAAAd/dog-cookie.gif Also I said that () syntax is essential and Rust's macros are not a "good compromise" (he was asking whether it was a compromise). And he wasn't happy with my answer.

Pedja Zolinsky19:08:27

so is it safe to say that Clojure is officially dead and no longer thriving?

souenzzo19:08:25

Once Linus is gone, how will Linux be maintained?

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seancorfield19:08:55

Clojure is directly supported by Nubank -- and several people working on Clojure are employed directly by Nubank. They have hundreds of Clojure developers and are very invested in keeping Clojure very much alive @U03P01XST0W

seancorfield19:08:42

If you look at the survey results link I posted above, you can see that more respondents are using Clojure for work projects year-on-year and it is increasingly being used by larger companies for more enterprise projects.

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Drew Verlee08:08:34

Python dob was 91, clojure 07, that's a 16 years difference. Look at where python was 16 years ago vs today.

Drew Verlee08:08:44

Given most high level languages are moving to become what clojure already is, I'm highly optimistic that gravity will win out.

Annaia Danvers15:08:12

there was a time when Python was derided as a mere "scripting language" and not considered "real programming". Now it's replacing other languages in CS programs.

Annaia Danvers15:08:25

That said, from the perspective of someone who's been on the job market recently, the Clojure prospects have started to look pretty rough over all, even as compared to it always having been kind of a niche language.

Drew Verlee15:08:18

I think the reality is that it's really hard to quantify these things. Take js for instance, you are really just applying for a js job? Let say you have 5+ years in medical companies using reactjs with css grid and tailwind. Are you going to take a job doing jquery for a shop that makes indie games and relies a lot of flash integration?

Drew Verlee15:08:45

The reality is that specialization always narrows your reasonable market. Clojure reaches farther and stronger then most things that lock you in.

seancorfield15:08:32

A lot of large companies are using Clojure, yes. But a lot of large companies are polyglots and they may have one or two small Clojure teams, three or four Scala teams, perhaps even a Haskell team, and then hundreds of medium-to-marge Java and JavaScript/TypeScript teams.

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seancorfield15:08:04

Apple have at least one Clojure team, for example, but you pretty much never hear about that because Apple are so secretive.

Pedja Zolinsky15:08:30

Aren't these companies shooting themselves in the foot by having these niche teams? It must be a nightmare to retain or replace people on their clojure, scala, haskell etc teams

Annaia Danvers15:08:44

And the thing with those secretive specialty teams is they often are rarely hiring from outside

seancorfield15:08:45

I did a Clojure job search recently on LinkedIn out of curiosity around this topic and there are at least three banks using Clojure in the Bay Area.

Pedja Zolinsky15:08:17

Which banks if you don't mind me asking

Annaia Danvers15:08:50

like there's been a lot of internal Rust adoption at some massive companies, but it's all internal hires or people with seriously senior level experience in C++

Annaia Danvers15:08:20

so you go looking for Rust jobs on the public market, and all you find are crypto startups, because the legit work isn't happening in public

seancorfield15:08:29

@U03P01XST0W These companies are large enough and have the resources to let teams work with whatever tech they want for certain projects. They might try to mandate "everyone use Java" but that's just not the reality. When I worked at Adobe, most teams followed the (very dull) corporate standards but there were several outliers using unsanctioned tech across the board.

Annaia Danvers15:08:33

Heck, I know for a fact there's big corps using Racket, but they're so secretive about it that the last time I applied to a Racket job, it was under NDA and I wasn't even allowed to know who I was applying to until later in the process. Never did actually find out.

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seancorfield15:08:39

U.S. Bank was advertising several Clojure jobs in the Bay Area. I don't remember the others. You could go search LinkedIn for Clojure jobs, like I did šŸ™‚

seancorfield15:08:05

@U03TPPC0R0T Yeah, a huge amount of hiring in more niche tech is done through networking and referrals and so you won't find a lot of those jobs advertised at all -- which skews the apparent availability of jobs for some tech...

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Annaia Danvers15:08:50

That's how I got basically all of mine šŸ˜„

seancorfield15:08:42

I got my current job through networking and it was originally a CFML gig -- and I introduced Scala for a trial and then switched to Clojure for a trial. And that "stuck" and now we're 100% Clojure on the backend.

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seancorfield15:08:03

(and I'm coming up on twelve years full-time at this place)

respatialized15:08:25

tired: apply for a Clojure job wired: turn your shop into a Clojure shop

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Annaia Danvers15:08:33

Hah. That was how clojurice happened šŸ˜„

Takis_01:08:25

Clojure syntax is nested, like trees. For me and i guess for all of us, its natural. But for other people we have to convince them that nested code is useful. One example that i find nested code realy useful is on data processing, like writting tree pipelines, not just vertical pipelines. In general i think that data processing, is a field that clojure shines, and can make it more popular

Takis_01:08:41

we also have spark, its in scala, but it can be easily used from clojure, in simpler way

enn19:08:20

Itā€™s looking like I wonā€™t make it to any conferences this year, since many are still postponed or virtual, and since flying seems pretty painful right now. Anyone have recommendations for alternative places to spend my professional-development stipend?

jakemcc19:08:02

If you're interested in any of the topics covered, https://www.executeprogram.com/ was a nice way to learn typescript. I'd imagine it is for the other topics as well.

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Alex Miller (Clojure team)19:08:44

well if you are actually interested in a conference, https://thestrangeloop.com and it's preconfs has a lot of Clojure content (and a lot of not Clojure content) and is about a month away

jakemcc20:08:14

and is generally a pretty great conference