moar types pl0x

Closure is my favorite language (this person did actually like Clojure though)

Yeah I don't get the replacing the "j" with "s", but oh well. Maybe JavaScript has just broken me, but I don't really feel any reliance on types.

Especially in Clojure when I can just evaluate the thing I'm curios about IN THE EDITOR using Conjure.

on your phone, this is a common autocorrect, and you can't edit tweets so ...

It's an interesting audience to ask the question, since most popular JVM languages are statically typed, so it's only expected to hear most of the dislikes have to do with the lack of static typing. It would be interesting to see how Clojure fares with those who already program in a dynamic language. Most of my experience is with Python, and for me the experience was the other way around when I learned Kotlin: I disliked having to think about types all the time, even in the most minute private functions. (And Clojure was an immediate hit.) So, it's interesting to ask just how much this prior experience affects the like/dislike here.

"on your phone, this is a common autocorrect, and you can't edit tweets so ..." Oh right, didn't even think of that. "I disliked having to think about types all the time, even in the most minute private functions." I actually don't mind this; thinking in types helps me most of the time. I just really hate having to name more things.

I wasn't aware of that autocorrect either. I didn't mean it harmfully either way 🙂. And to be clear on my experience with typing: I don't oppose types, but I probably don't have the level of mastery where they don't feel like "getting in my way". Having said that, I do recognize your "thinking in types" somewhat when designing functions.

I love the immutable tweets.

I always think of Rich Hickey's talks of course and slides like this where it shows "types" are just one part of the equation in creating good software and far from being the most important part. I can't quite put in words but to me it seems that the focus on immutability and pure functions gets you so much of the "way there" without the downsides that comes with static typing that no one wants to admit to. I think Eric Normand has really been struggling with a way to explain that too. It's probably going to remain a never ending debate of folks talking past each other.

That being said, when I'm doing some Rust programming (probably my favorite language after Clojure for totally different reasons) I absolutely love the compiler help. I definitely see the benefits of static typing but still think Clojure brings more to the table to make it more than worth it. It's always a breath of fresh air when I come back to it.

I love structural typing, it gets around having to name everything and gives you what I mostly care about: what does this function take and what does it return

it doesn't tell you what those values mean -- you need documentation for that -- but it does give you verification on changes (like upgrades) and doesn't get in the way

@U9J50BY4C are those screenshots from Simple made Easy or one of the other ones? I've seen them before, but I can't remember where they are from and I'd like a re-watch. Really annoying 😂

Edit -- found it, it's from Simple Made Easy. Googled, hit a transcript. https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hickey_Rich/SimpleMadeEasy.md | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKtk3HCgTa8

I don't know if that first one was from there. I can't remember now, but I found it again in this tweet: https://twitter.com/stuarthalloway/status/926065084652228609

found the source of the first image too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V1FtfBDsLU&t=69s 😄

Ha, I was literally looking for the slides on Effective Programs to see if it was that one.

Those slides speak so much truth, but obviously only present themselves in real world large projects. So for a lot of people "trying Clojure", you'll probably just be like, where's the auto-complete and red squiggly lines?

@U0K064KQV my experience advocating for Clojure exactly! T: Look at this Clojure code, so nice! X: How do I get nice VSCode autocompletion for this? T: ... T: Look at all the stuff I'm not doing! X: I don't understand this code, you should write more clearly T: But .. it's because I don't have to write all this stuff that the program is dense X: Write more clearly. Here's this Rob Pike talk about how to write code: ... T: ...

Probably thousands on this server, given its size.

Yeah decided to clarify.

There are 22k ppl in this group alone and I think that most of them are pretty well versed in this. Edit after I saw that there is Flutter suddenly: Mobile/web development

After the edit, I don't really agree. When you browse through "success stories" on the Clojure's website, most of those are some server-related things. Only some are mobile-related.

Yeah it seems like ClojureDart is relatively new and still not fully production ready for the masses, so I figured it wouldn't be that many people.

Roam uses it for their native apps, I guess it means it's good enough for production uses

The note taking app?

Yes

Don't get me wrong, there are probably rough edges, but I suspect it's very usable already

Well from their doc, "ClojureDart is a work-in-progress but it's good enough for the bravest Clojurists to put in in production."-- so that's why I said it's not production ready "for the masses"

I'm sure it's fine, but I've had experience with implementing production websites in WIP frameworks and it wasn't very fun to fix breaking changes every week. I'm sure it's not as bad here, but my level expertise is also not as good.

I asked a https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/C03RZGPG3/p1654289107467259 some months back.

@U02E9K53C9L sweet, thank you! Looks like what I need.

teams and azure are both like that. essentially if you didn't jump through the hoops just so you need to contact support to get things fixed

we like having repeatable processes and they made a lot of the earlier setup stuff impossible to handle consistently

You're not a business person. Microsoft knows better. Give up. They already sold your future to a third party 😄 This is the new totalitarism. You have to comply or you'll struggle eternally.