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- # announcements (6)
- # beginners (207)
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- # cestmeetup (35)
- # chlorine-clover (36)
- # clj-kondo (15)
- # cljsrn (2)
- # cljtogether (1)
- # clojure (110)
- # clojure-europe (8)
- # clojure-italy (9)
- # clojure-nl (2)
- # clojure-uk (5)
- # clojurescript (61)
- # conjure (4)
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- # datalog (3)
- # datomic (22)
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- # events (2)
- # figwheel-main (11)
- # fulcro (23)
- # graalvm (16)
- # graphql (1)
- # helix (4)
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- # jobs-discuss (4)
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- # mid-cities-meetup (13)
- # off-topic (58)
- # pathom (12)
- # re-frame (30)
- # reagent (45)
- # reitit (1)
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- # sci (2)
- # shadow-cljs (173)
- # spacemacs (1)
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- # test-check (5)
Is it just me, or did Space / Shift-Space just stop working as PgDn/PgUp in web Slack conversation log?...
Most of the people that usually chat here are still asleep. FWIW I just tried the web version - Space there doesn't work for me.
Yeah, it did scroll the conversation log (if you click there before pressing Space / Shift-Space, that is)
This update really messes with my muscle memory, I use Space / Shift-Space for scrolling everywhere on the web 🙂
aww, man, and in the "Thread" window they just broke the keyboard navigation completely. Even PgUp/PgDown don't work, you have to use the damn mouse 😕
If I end up getting an ARM Mac, and the “run iOS apps on desktop” thing delivers, I’ll probably end up throwing out the Electron wrapper and use the iPad app instead.
Hey, fwiw I use the web slack and (shift)Space works for me. I'm using Firefox on Debian if that helps.
everyone should like this tweet so we see more useful software rules of thumb https://twitter.com/hillelogram/status/1289959957622751233 (also I recommend reading the thread of course - so many cool ideas in so compact a space)
I'm interested in more about this (and more importantly what we can do about it, if anything) https://twitter.com/hillelogram/status/1289965185030004736
To be fair, this has nothing to do with the Clojure community, it is a general problem. There will always be someone that someone else does not like, and associating the problem with a particular community is a misleading move.
There are communities I choose not to engage with because their common way of communicating is unpleasant. Even though the things they do are technically interesting. I don't know the details in this case, but this sort of thing does happen.
If it were just about lone wolves / random bad actors, then we'd see a poisson distribution of bad behavior. But we don't. We see clusters around various languages / technologies that retain a specific character.
What we could do is let Hillel know that he is welcome in the Clojure community, if he successfully ignore the person that annoys him.
we could also let people behaving poorly know that sort of behavior isn't welcome, I don't want to get into drama here but that doesn't always happen
We have a code of conduct already https://github.com/clojurians/community-development/blob/master/Code-of-Conduct.md
I’ll be the first to admit I stayed away from Clojure for a long time for the same reason (“there are so many languages out there, why should I try Clojure over the others when the only Clojurist I’ve interacted with is a jerk?“) It wasn’t until I heard Eric Normand on The Changelog that I decided to learn Clojure, and fortunately I’ve never seen that one person in this Slack or in the Clojurians Discord, and have mostly seen only the positive side of the Clojure community.
“The jerk of someone is the hero of someone else.” As the Clojure community is mostly communicating via a written medium where words can easily make people misinterpret their intent, I am sure that many misunderstandings happen. This is specially a problem for new comers which only have a “very local” view of the whole community.
Maybe we can take actions so that the “local view” that new comers have when they arrive on Slack is very welcoming, by funneling them in the right channels and help them broader their “local view” in a direction which is stochastically benevolent.
@UGTAV6LR2 In the early days here we certainly had some "characters" who moved on when they found themselves repeatedly falling foul of the Code of Conduct -- and I'd like to think that really has had an impact on the overall positivity of this community. I would be curious, as one of the Admin Team here, in knowing who turned you off Clojure so we can keep an eye out for them (and others who act like them). A DM is fine if you don't want to name publicly (and it's also fine if you don't even want to name privately so please don't feel any pressure on that).
I feel like social media and especially twitter that cultivates the attitude where you judge everybody by the actions of one person connected to a community, even if they’re not actually a part of that community.
@U8MJBRSR5 “The jerk of someone is the hero of someone else.” In this particular case, I suspect you’re right, although my interactions were prolonged to the extent that I can be certain it wasn’t a simple misunderstanding (when I was talking about Clojure last spring with one of my coworkers, the first question he asked me was whether I’d interacted with this same individual, so it’s not just me). Differing from Hillel, it was not a question of projecting one person’s demeanor onto the entire community, but rather one of choosing another language since the community I was already actively involved in at the time (a regional tech group) made certain options more accessible than others. ¯\(ツ)/¯
agreed - I've never judged an entire community by the worst actors, but have definitely avoided communities that would otherwise be relevant, in order to not deal with their worst actors
I didn't mean to just highlight the sad part - the rules are really interesting and useful (which does incidentally make it sadder that he was scared away from our community)
“It doesn’t matter if 99% are great, outsiders will remember the 1% that are assholes” Nope. Simply untrue. People who want to find a reason to complain, will focus on this 1%. If the guy knows that he’s biased because of behaviour of one Clojurist, and doesn’t want to dig deeper because of that, it’s not community fault
but somehow there are communities where this is a common problem, and others where it isn't
I’m fairly positive that Clojurians are not assholes, by majority 😉 I also think that the author of tweet could’ve poked @clojure, @planetclojure, or add #clojure to his tweet and ask for help from more kind members of community 🙂
I feel like apologizing here, I wasn't trying to open a referendum about behavior in our community, and should have been more careful about how I shared this, because of course this will touch a nerve
sure, but I don't want to pick out this one person as a big example, and I would want to start the conversation with a more constructive framing
(and I want to discourage people from going to that tweet to argue with him, it sucks to get brigaded, even by accident)
there are definitely people in our community who are more zealot than advocate, who lurk in several online communities, which I find completely derail productive discussions
The only person you control is yourself, so be the person you'd like to see in the community
all I know is I see people having dozens of positive interactions, particular with #beginners in here every day and I am proud to be a part of that
In my limited experience of a month or so of active reading and participation, I think this has been a really positive and welcoming bunch of people without the excessive hostility and arrogance that is usually present in IT-based discussion. And the fact that #beginners is active and helpful has made me feel inclined to work more with Clojure.
yes. I also wouldn’t expect people to wade into every hacker news comments section and twitter thread and police peoples rhetoric 😄
but I do believe now that it’s important to reply to the zealots I see in two ways: 1. Couching their claims about Clojure with my real world experience, and explaining what the tradeoffs are 2. Telling them that their method of discourse are not productive, and in fact inhibit productive discussion