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#off-topic
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2020-06-20
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lilactown02:06:16

gotta say, netlify is so good

parens 2
lilactown02:06:31

created a new SPA and it's just instant deploy from a github repo

David Pham07:06:49

A bit expensive no?

lilactown07:06:53

i don't do much so it's free for me!

David Pham07:06:51

Haha yeah I should also try. But I get the same if you do some devops haha

Aron08:06:03

I would love to read some blogs or even work notes about these setups. Even if it's behind some patreon or something, tanstaafl

sova-soars-the-sora12:06:39

I was thinking about the second screen i carry around, normally a small computer called a "phone" and it can remember all the text I type in and give me suggestinos.

sova-soars-the-sora12:06:48

but one thing it cannot do is generate text in my style, yet.

sova-soars-the-sora12:06:36

Given enough input, though, a keyboard app could be a generative tool without user input after a while. I was wondering about that. Would you read a novel "written in your style" but not actually writ by you? 😄

Aron13:06:11

yes, I was wondering about that too

mario-star 1
Aron13:06:00

the way we write messages, or rather, the way we communicate need to get updated to the level of new tech. we are still using things that were limited by thousand year old techs, Lindy effect is strong

🎯 1
sveri13:06:24

Actually, whatsapp started suggesting replys a few days ago for me. So, when I get a message it tries to "understand" it and offer generic answers like "No, thanks" and some more. I like that.

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sveri13:06:39

I also think google (if you use android heavily) knows what you are doing next, or knows what you are doing right now. It could keep a journal of it, written in text form.

dominicm13:06:04

I vaguely recall some software that would create a font of your handwriting. Not quite the same, but interesting.

Conor13:06:28

I too enjoy living in a panopticon

🎩 4
sova-soars-the-sora17:06:52

@conor.p.farrell hahahahahahaha nooo stop nailing it

sova-soars-the-sora17:06:08

Just pipe all data through the central authority

sova-soars-the-sora17:06:22

tonsky says get a new monitor, he right. https://tonsky.me/blog/monitors/

👍 1
sova-soars-the-sora17:06:46

at least for me, it was hilariously well timed, had ordered one last week xD

sova-soars-the-sora17:06:02

amazing how much more code I can see. Forgot how useful two displays was/is/willbe

sova-soars-the-sora17:06:37

"your comprehension as a programmer is directly correlated to how much code you can see at once " was a very interesting finding from a paper i have long since forgotten the name of

sova-soars-the-sora17:06:20

funny how one might know things that could improve the quality of life, but without acting on said things the benefits go unrept (pluperfect of reap?)

mg20:06:28

I've noticed that a cycle of cynicism seems to affect experienced Clojure developers after a while. This has been affecting me too lately. I'm not sure what this is about.

alexmiller21:06:24

I think you are extrapolating from a very small sample set. I know many, many experienced Clojurists who don’t show up on any of the popular forums because they are just happily getting stuff done

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mg20:06:35

Maybe there's a tension between the feeling of unlimited possibility of lisp and the strains of conservatism in clojure's design

mg20:06:04

Eventually the conservatism wins out and the sense of possibility fades, and we're cranking out more incremental business software with the interesting ideas all wrung out

sveri20:06:51

@michael.gaare what exactly are you feeling?

mg20:06:48

Ennui perhaps? I've explored some idea spaces that were interesting, but feeling like there's no where further to go. I've spent a lot of time on web services, and I think it's a very strong space for clojure. Even so you reach a point where it's all the same

mg20:06:42

I'm working in Scala lately, building some things in a stack that's new to me and has some different tradeoffs than the various clojure web stacks I've worked in the last 8 years. I'm left with the sense that it's not appealing, that I could do it much faster in clojure in a way that would be somewhat more satisfying but still rather prosaic and predictable, and not really demonstrably better to anyone who might look at it

phronmophobic20:06:34

i’ve been using for clojure for years and I’m more optimistic than ever about interesting new design opportunities

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phronmophobic20:06:38

it’s also interesting to follow what others are up to. personally, I’ve found interesting ideas in #re-frame, #hoplon, #cljfx, #reveal , #graalvm, #data-science, and #off-topic

sveri20:06:32

Hm, I have been exploring programming for almost 30 years now (with some breaks in the beginning), first as a hobbyist, then as a profession. And I reached a point where I feel something similar. Learning a new tool, language, framework, whatever always gave me a kick, probably dopamine, but the more you know, the more you recognize patterns and see similarities and the less new there is to learn. I took a dive into machine learning for like two years until I finally grasped what data scientists applying ML models are doing and was instantly bored. Now it's just another tool I could use if I need to. And, in the last year I saw something similar happen to me watching movies. During university (2000s) this has always been something special to me, sharing avis while meeting friends, p2p, copying DVDs, I still remember the thrill of watching SAW 1 and the Texas Chain Saw massacre, it was so awesome. Now netflix has made this something that is always available, they output a lot of mediocre stuff and it's hard to get thrilled by something new. Same with listening to music and spotify, at least for me personally. I don't want to say everything was better two decades ago, I think this is just the natural thing happening while recognizing patterns and the brain looking for new information.

sveri20:06:18

I personally set a new goal for me, pushing one of my side projects through and bring it into a useable state.

mg20:06:01

Some of the Graal stuff looks quite interesting. Also I should say that I have a couple side projects cooking that give me some real juice. Maybe for me this is more about the inherent shitshow that is web services and most business software

phronmophobic20:06:17

that makes sense. businesses are generally less interested in hard problems that don’t have predictable solutions, but those are the fun problems to work on

mg20:06:47

For others in the community, I'm not sure. A lot of the early clojure pioneers are gone, or sort of disappeared into a reactive conservatism (thinking of say Stuart Sierra), or sustained by what appears to be diminishing interest (eg Zach Tellman)

mg20:06:03

I'm also thinking of my own passion. The first time I met some of the prominent people in the community I was too star-struck to even talk coherently. Saw Stu Halloway talk at dev nexus years ago, and afterwards was gushing at him with an enthusiasm that I imagine he found quite uncomfortable. Same with Stu Sierra and some others, a bit later

phronmophobic20:06:38

just like people grow and change, so do communities. what are you interested these days? or what were interested in from the past?

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mg20:06:53

Probably the same hill that we've been dying on as software developers for the past 60 years: the idea that there is some expression of the ideas of our systems that's both pure and expressive enough that it is both disconnected from implementation details and allows the system to handle implementations in different contexts for you

parrot 1
mg20:06:04

These days I don't think I could summon enough excitement to even try to talk to them

mg20:06:45

Is this a problem with Clojure perhaps? I have no ideas or commentary to add. I generally use Component for everything and think its design is exactly right. A very focused idea, with straightforward implications. So what is there to add, or talk about?

sveri20:06:46

I don't think so, that's why I provided examples where I feel the same in other areas of life.

phronmophobic20:06:04

i believe clojure suffers less from bitrot, so solving the same problem over and over again is less appealing, but i think there are still lots of unsolved problems

mg20:06:56

Scala people seem to be about to talk endlessly, as the language and ecosystem provide limitless opportunities to do things with varying degrees of ugliness or self inflicted complexity

mg20:06:32

I went to this Scala conference focused on the more hardcore functional side of the community, and one of the presentations was about how they migrated from one effects system to another, and all I could think of was, "you've got to be fucking kidding me"

mg20:06:36

They're masturbating with category theory

👀 1
Cory20:06:20

lol, which one was it? i was using typelevel scala for the past 6 years or so.

Cory20:06:14

there is definitely a subset of scala engineers whose approach is kind of like "i'd rather use haskell but there are more scala jobs"

mg21:06:58

@cory it was the typelevel track of nescala

mg21:06:30

@sveri I think you're right. It's a lot about the patterns. Like I've been dealing with spring boot lately. On the one hand, I think centralized dispatch where the call chain is very clear is better in every way compared to this annotation magic. On the other hand, who cares?

sveri21:06:34

Yep. At work, we deploy to a custom web container, that does not support reloading of anything. So a typical dev workflow for me looks like: Change code -> maybe run some unit tests -> build with gradle (which takes around 15 seconds on a pretty good machine) -> deploy to container (deployment takes around one minute), logout/login again -> run integration test or manually recover WebUI state by clicking through the application -> test my change works. Compared to the clj/cljs story it's a totally different universe. But, I get paid for sitting there waiting, so who cares?

dominicm21:06:08

You. If you want to have an effect on the world. Working at 10% just feels like a waste.

seancorfield21:06:01

@michael.gaare I've been "getting stuff done" with Clojure in production for about a decade now and I'm still as enthusiastic about it as I always have been. I did Scala for a bit before that and attended quite a few Scala conferences -- and that schism between "enterprise" folks building stuff and the functional zealots was very noticeable back then too.

borkdude22:06:37

@michael.gaare Haha, that reminds me of a company I worked at using Scala as their main language. There was a discussion about a script written in Scala, whether a step should return a boolean, a Some, a Try or just throw... and this went on for an hour. I could have written 3 more scripts in Clojure.

Aron22:06:56

speaking of interesting problems, anyone knows an existing solution or even a proof of concept where you can build an ad-hoc network using just mobile phones (so no access to wifi or carrier signal, just the phones talking to each other and maybe the people using the phones talk to each other on some other unspecified channel, e.g. personally)

phronmophobic22:06:30

is an adhoc wifi signal acceptable, even if it’s not connected to the broader internet?

phronmophobic22:06:59

otherwise, that probably just leaves bluetooth, camera, video camera, or microphone/speakers for communicaiton

Aron04:06:53

have you tried either of those

Aron04:06:13

I only tried serval and it required rooting the phone afaik, so it's not really easy

Aron04:06:21

and BT mesh is just not for this

naomarik23:06:47

@michael.gaare I'm also happily getting things done with Clojure as a one man development team. Don't think I would have survived ~4 years as a one man team in any other language. Nothing to be cynical about here 🙂