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#off-topic
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2019-12-04
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doglooksgood10:12:04

for anyone who use evil/vim, could you share your keybindings for command like forward sexp, backward sexp, etc?

doglooksgood13:12:06

@dominicm thanks!

p-himik15:12:30

I've done a few pretty basic session-based authentication/authorization systems for web services, and that's rather simple. But now I need to also handle SSH users. Is there anything out there that can be used as a library or a self-hosted service?

orestis15:12:01

SSH users?

p-himik15:12:11

What's wrong with that phrase?

sogaiu17:12:12

mixing ssh and web seems unusual?

p-himik17:12:27

Unusual to the people that develop primarily web services - of course, almost by definition. 🙂 Unusual in the world where a huge data throughput is required and there are various legal constraints for working with the data - not so much.

justinstoller17:12:32

github is a good example of web service that provides both https and ssh api access (I’ve tried but haven’t had great luck with Java SSH implementations in the past)

sogaiu17:12:37

ah, that sounds like it could be a good one to examine, thanks for mentioning it

eggsyntax19:12:24

Happy news (I really detest their poor implementation of WYSIWYG): https://twitter.com/SlackHQ/status/1201955273667158023?s=19

sogaiu19:12:03

i also preferred the older arrangement...but looking at prefs > advanced > input options, it's not obvious to me what i'm supposed to do to get the older behavior

eggsyntax20:12:44

I had to restart slack before it showed up.

sogaiu20:12:55

thanks for the tip -- when you say "it showed up", does that refer to the section "input options" or something in that section?

eggsyntax20:12:43

It does; a new input option showed up.

sogaiu20:12:27

thanks for the image -- very helpful

eggsyntax20:12:52

^ confusingly written, since "markup" sounds like it might be WYSIWYG, but I assume they meant to write "markdown"...

stefan.van.den.oord20:12:58

Hi all, a few months ago I offered to the director of the elementary school here that I would maybe like to teach kids some programming skills. I guess she remembered, because today she asked if I’m still willing to do so, there is an opportunity in January. We’re talking about 4 times 2.5 hours, to kids of 10 – 12 years of age. Since I’ve never done this before, I am curious if any of you have experience with this and can offer some practical advice / guidance. I’m not necessarily thinking Clojure by the way, but this is such a nice and friendly community 😉 What language to choose? What topic? Things like that.

stefan.van.den.oord20:12:37

@ Is this something you’ve maybe done before?

andy.fingerhut20:12:44

If you do end up going with Clojure, ClojureBridge may have some useful materials. I haven't look at them, personally, so can't say whether they are suitable for your purposes.

stefan.van.den.oord20:12:21

Hmm I thought they were targeting adults mostly?

stefan.van.den.oord20:12:37

Oh and @ do you maybe have some ideas on this? You’ve had some experience with ClojureBridge didn’t you?

doby16220:12:43

I know some kids who have learned with https://codecombat.com/ It looks neat, I think it's free for the first n levels

dharrigan20:12:12

Written in Clojure

dharrigan20:12:31

Here is another resource:

dharrigan20:12:37

look at "Learning Paths"

alexmiller20:12:48

Perhaps useful advice re teaching programming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ib43q3uXQ

alexmiller20:12:42

I've taught several different things like this and used Processing (Khan's is a good environment), Logo, interactive fiction environments like Inform / TADS. My son's also done Minecraft stuff on the older end of this.

alexmiller20:12:19

it is good to have a clear goal - teaching computational thinking, giving a feel of programming, or trying to start on a path towards "real" programming.

alexmiller20:12:54

for me, at this age, my opinion is that it has to produce an effect they can see (picture, sound, game, etc), have immediate feedback loop, and not require installing anything on a computer

stefan.van.den.oord20:12:15

Those are already some awesome resources right there, thanks guys! I’m turning in now, can’t wait to see what more you all will come up with! 😉 ❤️

alexmiller20:12:55

for just teaching computational thinking (without a computer), https://www.csunplugged.org/en/ is great

stefan.van.den.oord21:12:09

(Very much agree about the “instant gratification” @ and indeed complexity of installation should not be needed for this)

stefan.van.den.oord21:12:42

(CS unplugged, nice!)

dharrigan21:12:02

I like George since it has turtle graphics and has that instant "gratification" of seeing things immediately

dharrigan21:12:13

maria.cloud is another instant gratification 😉

alexmiller21:12:20

my experience has been that syntax and punctuation are a Big Deal for kids this age

alexmiller21:12:59

just making sure [] and {} and , and ; are in the right place and matching is hard

alexmiller21:12:44

having an env where you can start from an existing program, change stuff, and see it have an effect, is a big help

alexmiller21:12:32

also a good processing env

jayzawrotny00:12:11

Racket may be a good Clojure-like choice for this too. It was designed with teaching young children in mind and the common editor seems to be able to do basic graphics and animations. http://emmanueltouzery.github.io/blog/posts/2016-10-13-teaching-racket.html

alexmiller00:12:57

yeah, and How To Design Programs is probably a good level of book for a slightly older audience

brett02:12:39

Have a look at Sonic Pi, as the output is music, and you can do live-coding! https://sonic-pi.net

orestis08:12:06

On the other end of the spectrum, I taught a 3hour workshop to teenagers doing Arduino stuff. I made some “daughter boards” with LEDs, a piezo speaker, potentiometer etc. I thought that kids aren’t impressed but a logo turtle anymore...

orestis08:12:08

Syntax was a little bit of an issue, but not that much. But I suspect some kids had already done a tiny bit of coding somehow, so they knew at least that syntax was significant.

jack.crawley9213:12:16

I used to teach scratch to elementary-aged kids (10-11 years old). Honestly, I wouldn't recommend something text-based. It's not that it's hard to understand, the biggest issue IMO is keeping their attention.

jack.crawley9213:12:47

Visual languages and stuff like Lego Mindstorms is just way more captivating for most kids in that age group, especially the ones who would be less interested.

stefan.van.den.oord06:12:40

@ I can see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think I’ll have Mindstorms available. In this case kids are going to volunteer for this, choosing between four options, but they probably also hardly know what to expect.

stefan.van.den.oord06:12:34

So thanks for all the great suggestions and pointers everyone, it has definitely helped me!!

jack.crawley9212:12:02

@ Scratch is visual, just to be clear. It went down well.

eval202012:12:42

@ from my bookmarks: - “Conversations with a six-year-old on functional programming ” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17015661 - “Do you think Clojure is a good choice as a first language to teach an 11 year old?” - https://old.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/8g4ol9/do_you_think_clojure_is_a_good_choice_as_a_first/ - “Anyone have experience using Clojure as a first language for kids (8-9yo)? Any tips or pointers?” https://mobile.twitter.com/plexus/status/932207178181693442

jack.crawley9212:12:59

The biggest barrier IMO was getting "the bug" to bite them. If they're motivated, they'll work with whatever you throw at them. Kids build crazy stuff with redstone in Minecraft. If they aren't interested, they'll give up at small bumps. I only taught two courses, one to 10-11 year olds (mandatory lesson) and one to 13 year olds (elective, all boys). The older group made some really impressive stuff considering. One of the advantages of Scratch is that a lot of implicit information and limitations are built into the visual structure: <https://microbit.org/assets/posts/2019-01-14-scratch-meets-microbit.png> It's immediately clear how each statement fits together, and the process for adding & configuring a statement (do A, then tweak B, then tweak C) is visually encoded. I don't think the older group needed that as much, but it helped the younger group a lot, particularly the disinterested kids. Any ambiguity and they'd stop trying to solve the problem on their own, they'd wait until one of us could walk them through it directly. Another benefit is that the product is animation, so you get a visual payoff for everything. It's a juicy feedback loop and it means the kids can get competitive about creating the best animation or making each other laugh or whatever. I think I would recommend it. Depends on the scope of the course and how interested the kids are. The point of scratch is to convey basics, I'd move on to a real language once they have that.

jack.crawley9213:12:57

I would be wary extrapolating 1-to-1 retrospectives, especially when it's a programmer teaching their own kid. Groups are (much) harder as-is, but these kids seem way advanced for their age. Standardized math test from the UK, for 11-year-olds: <https://www.satspapersguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ks2-2019-mathematics-paper-3.pdf> Most 11 year olds have barely mastered algebra (the most advanced that UK curriculum gets is simultaneous equations). Thinking in terms of variables is already a big deal. LISP is way too much IMO.

stefan.van.den.oord14:12:26

Just an initial impression without having looked at everything: George seems very interesting!

vincent.cantin01:12:19

I was animating the CoderDojo in Taipei, was using Scratch, mainly. I also went with side activities during a few sessions, to make sure theycan create other things with a computer, I show them how to use MuseScore (music score editor) and MagicaVoxel