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> Nobody believes that a free toilet will be magically cleaned up and maintained, somebody has to do it, and that person would better get paid for it. Sharing a toilet means that you flush, clean up after yourself, and always leave some paper, it’s basic manners. And yet, like toilets, as FOSS gets used by more and more people, it gets more likely that you will see obnoxious people that shit all over your commons and then complain about it. And nobody will want to take care of it.


Thankfully I haven’t seen any obnoxious people in a Clojure yet.


But I do feel that OSS is becoming unsustainable. People need to get paid, structures need to be formed.


The moment we deploy Clojure on production (should be soon!) I’m signing up my employer for clojurists together.


I wish there was something similar for node.js.


I think for them its called "We'll get through this together"


(I’m not the author, btw. Just loved the metaphor)


Yep, good post. And Rich Hickey's latest rant hit that spot


Should we expect conj videos to land on Youtube on the day of the conference? Looking at 2017 timestamps it seems so, but it also sounds a little bit impossible so I wonder if the youtube videos are backdated 🙂


last year they were same day upload yeah


W00t - mad props to the Conj team. And thanks for the hard work 🙂

bubblebobble 8
bananadance 4

Is it unacceptable for Open Source project leads to just tell entitled people to stfu and gtfo ? It seems the core of the problem is entitled people who insist everyone do things their way. A simple approach to this i just "fork the project; if we like what you do, we'll cherry pick patches"

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@victor.cleja do you have a link on hand to that rant? I don’t think I’ve seen it.


Primo, thank you both.


it sure is something to see people who have made zero contributions to the clojure ecosystem call people who have co-authored clojure books, people who have made code contributions to the language, people who have maintained contrib libraries, people who started what was the most popular clojure tool, and people who wrote some of the most poplar libraries entitled because they are disappointed in how their contributions have been received

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Interestingly enough, the Spec-ulation keynote is also highly relevant to the OSS issue as seen demonstrated in NPM time and again.


I do wonder if names are going to be attached to artifacts at some point to ensure ownership is clear, e.g. 'Mordenkainen's Stream Flat-map'


com.mordenkainen/flat-map 🙂


Would help emphasize the importance of forking vs. ownership transfer. GitHub's model subtly encourages this as well, by placing forking front and center.


my own contributions to the clojure ecosystem have been very small, but I did go look and I currently have two core.async bug fix patches that have been sitting in jira since several months before the last core.async release, so I can understand in some small way why it is frustrating

Alex Miller (Clojure team)17:11:19

yeah, I feel bad that I haven’t had time to give async a slice in a while, hoping to get back there in the next few months

Alex Miller (Clojure team)17:11:28

core.async tickets are often a long review for me as the code is hard and the fixes are hard to evaluate, so anything you can do in the ticket to lead me through the problem and fix is hugely appreciated

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I am right there with you about it being hard to evaluate, I'll try and do a write up pass on the tickets


... are there any tools that enable quick comparison of code diffs between any two package version artifacts, at least in the JS world? I suppose you could just use a standard diff, but that seems crucial for enabling users to make quick decisions on whether a library update is trustworthy, as well.


Good repo tagging is helpful, but not dependable


I wrote about the bug fix difference and core contributions in — I’d like to see what people think, esp @hiredman since you have fixed bugs.


does js use minified artifacts or does each person's build process minify their artifacts?


its source based, much like go and clojure are, correct?


What you get from npm is anyone’s guess.


I don't know, but the constant barrage of people who are not invested in the conversation (have not made significant contributions) piling on is just insufferable.

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In the recent npm issue, the malicious code was only in the minified code.


oh yeah. good point.


@hiredman my personal contributions on the discussion (that post) are driven by the love for Clojure and fear that if it is perceived as a dying community, it will be a harder sell to my company. I hope I don’t come across as piling or insufferable. If so, please let me know if I can edit my post somehow.

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the depressing thing about that clojureverse post is just how well trodden that ground is, just in different places (irc, the mailing lists, in person, etc)


and some of the huge misunderstands about what is going on that are in there


like, the idea that "crowd sourced triage" would be proposed as some kind of solution is funny, because that is basically exactly what core doesn't want (as far as I can tell)


you are looking at it as a kind of theory of constraints bottle neck and we just need to remove that bottle neck, but (and I haven't had a personal conversation with anyone on core about this) core sees that as quality control


My aim is solely to show how other communities do it, ask questions, and hopefully gather relevant material - in an easy and accessible place. I hope that after the conj the core people might want to pipe in but I avoid asking them to.


If you have links to mailing lists posts that describe how core wants or doesn’t want help, I’d really appreciate having them on that discussion.


Side note about the triage: I’d be really surprised if Alex objects to someone jumping on new issues and just saying: “Thanks, can you please share a little bit more info on this”, then marking the issue as “info needed”. That’s what I’m suggesting, nothing more.


(That’s for him to decide. I’m pretty sure anyone can add a comment to any issue though)

Alex Miller (Clojure team)18:11:15

I added a long comment to your clojureverse post - please read!

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It’s dinner time here so I have to go. Have a great conj!


> The selected filter is not available to you, perhaps it has been deleted or had its permissions changed.


project = CLJ AND issuetype = Defect AND resolution = Unresolved ORDER BY votes desc is the matching query I came up with. Linked by;jqlQuery=project+%3D+CLJ+AND+issuetype+%3D+Defect+AND+resolution+%3D+Unresolved+ORDER+BY+votes+desc

Alex Miller (Clojure team)20:11:03

whoops, forgot to share some of those - should be fixed now I think