if you need to write high performance code that runs on JVM and JS, is Kotlin the best approach ?

@qqq I don't think Kotlin performance is much better then clojure, but it might be in some cases. But I did some research about Kotlin to JS but it seems hardly used, and the tooling is no where near what you get with clojurescript. I would guess it's probably best to write the part which needs high performance in rust, and compile to c for JVM, and to wasm for JS.

Some things go faster, some slower in Kotlin compared to Java, https://sites.google.com/a/athaydes.com/renato-athaydes/posts/kotlinshiddencosts-benchmarks

@gklijs: thanks for the insight on Kotlin / JS. I just worked through a Kotlin-JS tutorial, and came to a similar conclusion -- the tooling does not appear as impressive as CLJS. The code output is almost a straight forward rewrite of Kotlin.

@qqq there is kotlin-react which is also fast to setup, but it's basically just a kotlin typed wrapper over react.

So I’ve been thinking

(to change the subject completely)

Creatives have various “let’s do stuff together and review it together” groups. You know, writer’s groups, artist support circles, whatnot.

Is there an equivalent for software devs?

Good question

I'm not aware of any and considering how difficult it is just to try and see if anyone is interested in helping you on a side project I don't think so

Conversely, I was interested in helping people on side projects and didn’t see a way to find something ¯\(ツ)/¯

Haha, well I happen to be looking for help on a potential project

What do you think is the reason for people not interested in helping?

Or groups, etc

Good question and I'm sure it's not a simple answer

My guess is that people see it as a considerable time investment and look at it as a ROI type situation

I was thinking people wanted to make a name for themselves because all personal project presentations I’ve seen were “brags”… but then so do writers and artists.

Not sure what you mean

Wow, this is hard to explain without sounding ugly

haha

People like to be admired for what they produced. You’ll find a drive for fame with every artist.

I would agree with that

Now the question is would someone creating a side project to put as a project on their resume be in the same classification?

Well, that depends. Is the goal to get you a job and then discard the project? Then no, it’s not.

Discard meaning what exactly?

Not work on it anymore or have emotional involvement because you already achieved your goal (job)

What if your goal is to get a job, but also design software that you would use and thus maintain?

On the other hand, if more people “liking” it and talking about it and using it would give you extra motivation to work on it further then it does fall into the classification.

Interesting. I wouldn't agree with that

(sorry, cut a sentence in half and it looked like I was responding to you with the other half - but I wasn’t)

ha except now my response doesn't make sense

Software that you use and thus maintain also doesn’t fall under it, because you don’t need to opensource such software.

Gah, async communication 😄

You don't need to, but you could

Yes, sure

If it's not OSS you can't really show it on a resume

Only the end result

Yeah, I’m just trying to point at separate goals / what you get out of it

So i'm curious your motivation for asking the initial question

You can do a thing because it gets you a job. You can do a thing because you use it. You can do a thing because it gets you status. You can do a thing because it helps you learn.

Re motivation, pretty much what you’d expect 🙂

I’d like to make contacts with the local community of people who actually enjoy making things. I’ve recently written a thing myself, but I have no idea how to get feedback about it. Based on previous experiences with (pen and paper) game designers, the way to do so is to help other people with their stuff first.

Makes sense to me 🙂

if you're interested in contributing to OSS i'm sure basically any project on github will gladly welcome any help

“is OSS” and “is open to contributions” and “developer is going to reciprocate” are not fully overlapping categories because they increase in time investment.

“is OSS” basically means “I made a thing, look.” “is open to contributions” means the dev/s will actively take time to review said contributions. “is going to reciprocate” means the dev/s will take time to review said contributions, and also take time to review / contribute to someone else’s project.

Agreed

So if I were to join an OSS project, which I will eventually, I’m probably going to look at the larger and more established ones. These guys don’t have time for option 3 🙂 so that’s why a local writer’s circle equivalent would be more appropriate.

(Basically, how do people ever get better?!)

they ask

That's a dramatic over-simplification

i see your point but i don't think bigger projects will give you better results

Not with regards to people helping me out, but that’s for different reasons: larger projects can show you how to deal with things at a different scale than a single-person project.

tiny teams of just a few people are the level imo where you can establish personal relationships where you can ask favors of each other

larger projects seldom do that in the open. issues/prs are just references to irc/basecamp discussions that are concluded off sight

I would agree with that

Which is then ironic that it is so difficult to find help

people only contribute to stuff they're either legit interested in, or have an interest in fixing

most i see are people fixing bugs that cause THEM trouble

So back to the basic human characteristic of self-interest

don't go out of their way to fix bugs others are having trouble with

it's the free time of people after all

when to be selfish if not then

So screw the greater good then, eh?

as for open source projects you're not paid to work on, yes.

So again, self-interest

which is why you either need people to get interested in your project (which is pretty difficult) or establish relationships where you can ask them to devote some of their time for you

So basically people suck

😄

And how do you establish relationships where the default is to be hostile to helping without pay?

Or some other self-interest

you go in instead of waiting for others to come to you

That would be a huge waste of time if the project requires multiple people to be sucessful

Which the majority do

put in a very mean way, consider it an investment

I mentioned that before you joined in

ROI

Which is a nice way of saying people are selfish

"If I don't directly and immediately benefit from this it isn't worth my time."

So to try and help this, I created a channel to seek help or offer it here - #side-project-help

@whoneedszzz Are you trying to advocate for people working on projects that they have no personal interest in?

I'm not sure what you're asking

Not sure if you are bemoaning or celebrating the common occurrence that people don't often work on things that they don't get some benefit from.

Neither. We were discussing why it is so difficult to find help for a side project.

Re: motivation and OSS -- I've contributed to a lot of open source projects over the last 25+ years and they basically fall into two categories: they are interesting/scratch an itch, or they are something I'm already using in another project (usually at work)... or at least something I want to use and my involvement might make them more suitable for use in another project.

The itch-scratching projects tend to get discarded once sufficient scratching has occurred -- although, very occasionally, such projects garner users and then I'm on the hook to actually maintain the project for... years, potentially...

(in another tech, I created a minimal MVC framework to scratch an itch back in 2009... and it became one of the two most popular MVC frameworks for that tech... and I'm still maintaining it, nine years later! -- even tho' I no longer use that tech 🙂 )

how do you usually deal with the at work contributions considering how sensitive a lot of companies are to IP?

(although i guess if ‘at work’ for you == your own company then the question is moot)

i ran a popular-ish livestreaming oss project a few years ago, although ended up having to archive it due to ip considerations when my startup got funding and so on…anyway i really enjoyed doing it and occasionally would get enthusiastic contributors. My biggest takeaway was that it was mostly a really good lead generator for consulting. If you have a project that solves a problem for people, obviously. Random code on Github doesn’t do much for you.

Exactly why I'm trying to find help to work on a meaningful project

@jgh I only work for companies that allow employees to continue to work on OSS 🙂

ah, well that’s pretty good then!

companies get too carried away

It was one of my issues with Adobe, after they acquired Macromedia, where I'd worked happily for six years.

dont tell me you’re one of the masterminds behind rtmp in addition to c++

Nah, I was senior software architect for Macromedia's internal systems -- not for any of their products etc.

ah gotcha

Although I did spend a summer working on the Flash Player team, helping them with their ActionScript compiler test suite (because of my compiler background).