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but yeah, @jiyinyiyong you can do the math there, if in China you get 5 times more queries into Google about Clojure than in Finland but you have 200 times the people and even in Finland it’s not easy to get a Clojure job then it comes to me as not such a big surprise that actual companies using Clojure in China are very rare
For those who were at EuroClojure and remember Nada Amin's keynote 🙂 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15626816
Is Clojure particularly popular in Finland? It seems like quite a few people active in the #clojure IRC channel on FreeNode are from there too
yes, Clojure is relatively big thing in Finland. I’d say bigger than Scala in general
but of course my view of this thing is kinda affected by the fact I follow the Clojure community but not the Scala
I spent some time in Kuopio (Finland) and I was quite impressed by how many people considered functional programming to be "normal". I learnt Clojure there 🙂
yeah, I've run across more Clojure than Scala people/projects in Finland, and my office is mainly Scala
Or https://gershwin.github.io/ if you want a mix of Clojure and Forth 🙂 (it's abandonware at this point, but still an interesting project)
If you had an offer to do remote work in shelby north carolina in clojure for 40-60k working for a well established 18 year old company, versus moving to palo alto to do work in scala for 85-105k + equity at a startup preparing to enter phase b investment, what would you choose
Cost of living in Palo Alto is high, so you'd probably find your quality of life is lower in the Bay Area than in Shelby, NC (even with the difference in pay).
Also, California is an at will employment state so if your startup goes belly up -- which most of them do -- you could find yourself job-less with zero notice (and even if they don't go belly up, you could still be laid off with zero notice).
Also, Bay Area startups tend to be extremely high pressure and long hours. A lot of engineers get burned out.
palo alto is really, really expensive. my friend started a job at a big 4 today and his rent is somewhere near 3800-4000
he got an 80-100k paybump and his takehome after rent and taxes is going to be the same i think as here in louisiana
Yeah, your choice is an arm and a leg to live in PA or an or a leg to live in the East Bay and commute (and commuting here can really suck).
I live in the East Bay and work from home, but I used to commute to SF (which was OK, it was on public transit) and prior to that to Redwood Shores (near PA) from Oakland and that could be up to two hours each way. Occasionally more (and sometimes less).
Palo Alto is just about the worst commute in the Bay Area (no public transit to speak of).
he's lucky to be at a company that provides transport so i think commute won't be too bad since he can work on his commute
Oh, OK. Most Silicon Valley folks I know have a door-to-door day that is close to 12 hours.
or at least i don't know if he will. although i'm sure there will be some times of long hours
honestly @bcbradley i'm not sure which of those two are intriguing. NC should pay more than 40-60 and the valley should pay more than 100K
@dpsutton well i got in touch with these positions through two different technical recruiters, and these are the "minimim" figures I'd be willing to work in those areas for
I absolutely love clojure as a language, but after some time with it i'm starting to grow tired of some of the warts of it in practice-- nothing to do with the language itself mind you, but the error messages and stack traces are really a pain
yeah, making some changes and finding out a keyword is not sequable isn't a great feeling
and to be frank, sometimes it is really painful to learn new things in clojure because there is a lack of community emphasis on documenting things clearly
@dpsutton: there's a lot of bugs of the form "a dumb type checker would have caught that"
trying to set up a webserver to serve edn across the network for instance-- I'm sure that would be super simple and easy for people who know what they are doing already, but for someone who is new to web development and loves clojure because it is a beautiful language, they might find the number of things they have to learn to set up a webserver daunting
How much Scala experience do you have @bcbradley? I find the compiler errors in Scala to be just as impenetrable as Clojure at time...
I don't have any real experience with scala, but the place i'm applying for is comfortable with that if they are convinced I would make a good software engineer
and I believe they are, I've passed all the technical interviews-- did a live code challenge (in clojure!) and will meet with the ceo/cofounder the day after tomorrow
other things that weigh on my mind is the fact that I really enjoy the clojure community and want to be a part of it-- but at the same time I love the palo alto community and want to be a part of that
it would be nice to be smack dab in the middle of so much talk about software engineering
Speaking about “dumb type checker”, I use this tool https://github.com/candid82/joker and it catches a lot of “dumb” errors I would normally only see after evaluating something in the REPL
I live in the Bay Area and I'm not jealous of anyone who lives or works on the Peninsula 🙂
@borkdude Yeah, Joker is pretty good. I use it wrapped up in a linter inside Atom.
i feel like moving to california isn't necessarily going to lock me out of ever doing clojure professionally, whether at this start up or with another job
but its hard to know that without knowing someone who lives there or taking a visit
@bcbradley I don't think of the Bay Area as hot, temperature-wise. If you go inland -- Dublin/Pleasanton, Tracy -- then, yeah, it can be really hot. The Peninsula is kept cool by the ocean and the Bay, for the most part.
We hit 100 for a few days this summer and it was unpleasant. Mostly it's fine. It (almost) never freezes here either. My wife calls it "Baby Bear weather -- not too hot, not too cold".
@borkdude There are definitely parts of CA that are unpleasantly hot. Were you thinking of somewhere specific?
And, yeah, you're right that there's enough Clojure here that if the Scala gig didn't work out, you could go after Clojure jobs.
i just want to integrate it with the rest of what i know about clojure, making recursive searches and such
zip/next, zip/up, zip/down, zip/left, zip/right and zip/root basically just return a new data structure that you can't (or shouldn't) try to use directly
if you want the value AT THAT LOCATION that you originally fed in implicitly when you created a "zipped" version of the original data structure, you call zip/node
+1 on specter. It is based on Haskell's lenses, that let you handle complex data structures very easily
i think the biggest problem people have when learning zippers is that they focus too much on what it is doing behind the scenes when it doesn't really matter
it doesn't help you understand the interface any better, it just reassures you that it is in fact working
but clearly it works so unless you are just curious about it there isn't a reason to beat your head over the internals
the important bit is that there are functions in clojure that take persistent data structures and return new persistent data structures
it might seem odd to want to make a new data structure for each step, but unless you do you are forced to store something like an "index" or some kind of way to locate your specific position-- all zippers do is turn things inside out so that your "position" is always obvious (its the root of this "THING" we've been talking about)
I'm new here, but hope it's okay to shill my latest tweet, which I thought was funny (if one is keeping up with current events): https://twitter.com/burleyarch
That should have been just the tweet: https://twitter.com/burleyarch/status/927326686982627330
@james-clojure this must be what java programmers talking in terms of Go4 design pattern jargon sounds like to... um well i was going to say non technical personnel but nevermind