@mobileink that doesn't make much sense to me. denotational and operational semantics are about how one can formally reason about the behavior of a process. in clojure we're mostly stuck with wholly operational semantics, spec being an example of formalizing that

Hi. Thanks for replying. I read the article and found that there has to be some onboarding for new devs. But what is the process like once they figure out the system. Do they make a lot of mistakes after 20days ? (Assuming they are new to lisp as well and come from a python style or java style or javascript style background )

@shivekkhurana I'm not really sure. I'm just relaying here really.

there are so many todo mvc in the world

but I have not found a todo list I like

I want something where: (1) there are multiple lists, (2) iunside each list, I can indent items (i.e. sub items) and (3) I can easily drag from one list to another

it is surprisingly hard to find a todo list with these features

a recursive trello would be fun I think

to state how desperate I am

I'll even pay for such an app

@qqq do you want to drag around sub items?

I think remember the milk pro can do this. @qqq

yeah, I want to be able to drag items from one list ot nather list

via touch screen

my menta lmodel is: I type a bunch of stuff nito an unsorted listc

then I drag them around to the proper lists / sublists

so there's trhree phaess (1) brain dump of stuff I need to do (2) organizing such items, and (3) doing them / checking them off

I've never used sub-items (I'm not a pro member). But I know you can drag a task "on top" of another, and it will become a sub-task of that list.

I imagine you can do the reverse too, but I've not tried.

@qqq todoist can probably do it too.

@qqq Todoist has drag and drop. I started out using the free version and liked it so much I actually paid for it!

I use it to manage both my life and much of my business and it works really well.

whoa

premium upgrade is 28.99 ?

these guys are insane

https://en.todoist.com/comparePlans

eh, looks like free edition should be fine for now

> to state how desperate I am > I'll even pay for such an app 30 bucks

seems like a bargain for good software that makes you more productive

Got it for cheap off a humble bundle last year

true, but ios store has conditioned me to see apps for $1.99 or , gasp, $4.99 -- will try the free version first and see if the $28.99/year is worth it 🙂

when's the last time anyone paid $30.00 for a todo app? 🙂

I don't even use any of the premium features except comments/attachments, I think ¯\(ツ)/¯

alright, so I installed the app, and wsithin 5 seconds, I've twice hit : "you're discovered X, upgrade to premium! :-)"

Hmm, I don't remember it being quite that pushy...

I hit "labels"

then I hit "comments"

https://en.todoist.com/comparePlans

if I were to do this premium feature, I'd do something more evil

Good webhook and cross-app integration

like free for first 200 tasks

then, after you've completed 200 tasks, you're locked out until you pay for premium 🙂

Eugh

When I use a todo app, or a bookmarking app (currently Pinboard...), or a note-taking app (OneNote...), I'm just reminded that what I really want is a virtual workspace, a personal wiki of sorts

except it's impossible to find one that's reasonable to set up and use. 😐

Wiki or 'PKB', Personal Knowledge Base.

for me, it's just emacs

I need every device I own to remotely connect to the emacs session running on my desktop 🙂

how much you pay for that?

@fellshard we used to call that "pencil and paper". ;)

Yes, I'm sure you did. I much prefer the convenience of universal access without hauling said paper around, and the ability to embed hyperlinks 😛

@fellshard where does evernote fall short of that?

Shoddy formatting, mostly. It can't even handle a basic nested list.

OK - it was an honest question, I don't use it personally, but a coworker uses it as a personal wiki

http://orgmode.org is pretty awesome, if you're willing to put in the time to learn it.

Saw a lot about org mode, yeah.

that plus a private git repo can get you pretty far

org-mode is the one thing I miss since switching from emacs to vim over a year ago

i put in serious time with org mode when it was getting started. ended up dropping it when dealing with it began to be more effort than using it. it might be better now. but it is emacs. "i'll get that code wriiten as soon as i'm done customizing my env, real soon now."

yeah - I do so much less unneeded yak grooming once I left emacs

leave emacs!!!?? how could you???

yeah; how do you leave emacs?

C-x C-c

it's an utter blackhole; I'm now using eshell instead of zsh

what will the yaks do without grooming???

and everything is scripted in elisp (that's not in clojure)

then again, when you really need elisp you really need elisp.

i could not live without dired.

I would pay $30.00 for this: emacs rewirtten in clojure

I'm down to only having to use elisp/clj/cljs -- but only clj/cljs would make me even happier

i don't care about the implementation. my fingers simply will not learn a new set of keystrokes. age.

it's not about keystrokes

it's about scriptingth ide in clj instead of elisp

what would you rather program in ? elisp or clj ?

the fact that my editor is not programmed in a language I enjoy reinforces my self discipline to work on the things that actually matter - to me needing extensive editor tooling means I need better abstractions in my programming language, and if the abstractions aren't possible I need a better language

what would you rather code your ide in? elisp or clj ?

@qqq ah, you're still scripting emacs. in the fullness of time you will get over that, heh.

i never code my ide, since i don't have one. i have an editor.

;;; me --> keyboard --> emacs --> digital world ------
;;;                                                  |
;;;                                                  |
;;;                                                  |
;;; me <-- monitor <-- emacs <-- digital world -------

ps: guess what I used to draw above ascii diagram ?

@noisesmith true enough, but i need my editr to deal with multiple languages. i'm not really an emacs bigot, use whatever works for you (often but not always the first one you learn). i do like the option of writing elisp stuff when i really need to. which happens about once every 2 years.

I found so often with emacs that things almost worked, so it rewarded wasting my time with options because each one was an incremental improvement in productivity

but eventually I had to check in and realize the productivity increases were small compared to the time spent fiddling with things that almost but didn't quite work

and also chording is unnatural and very harmful to human wrists

i'm under the impression you can do in vim just about everything you would want to do.

yes

without the chording, also

heresay

google the editor wars from the 80s-90s. some pretty funny stuff. but thank god that's over.

@qqq you mean hear ye?

oh, I learned all about the editor wars from the stuff that comes with the emacs source distro 😄

heresy

@mobileink: ^

I tried using emacs when my desktop was a 166 Mhz. Back then, VIM was awesome.

I used vi variants for about a year, emacs for about 20 years, now back to vi year and counting

apostacy!!! leaving the One True Editor!

Now that I had quadcore 3+ Ghz, I really like emacs more.

i can top you all: i learned emacs on os/2!

@noisesmith that's interesting. wouldn't you love to have some stats about "switchers"?

yeah - I suspect that nobody that tried emacs first would have the patience to learn vi

i'm too old to even think about it, myself.

it's just accident that I tried vi first, figured it out on its terms, so I could come back to it comfortably

i've learned just enuff vi to deal with config files. my advice to youngsters is "use whatever editor you like (as long as it's emacs), but you absolutely must master the basics of vi".

i'm not sure i would hire somebody who could not use vi cmds to navigate a manpage.

I can navigate a man page with vi keys

but I cant' open manpage from inside vim

I can't microwave things inside my fridge

I wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't write a basic vi emulation layer via emacs / hydra

@qqq You're fired! 😂

I'm leaving #miraj

good luck explaining the 50% drop to your VCs 🙂

fwiw, my first job was at a mainframe shop. the editor was ISPF. I spent all my time customizing it using Rexx. Maybe that explains why i like emacs so much.

@qqq you'll be back. 😉

i couldn't bring myself to learn vi after all the plugins just seemed worse than emacs major modes

The only thing that makes it hard is JS 😛

And HTML... and CSS...