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#off-topic
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2017-04-24
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qqq14:04:58

Yeah, but unless you spend 10M+, I don't think it's possible to get a "house surrounded by nature" within driving distance of SF.

tbaldridge14:04:33

Reason #42 why I will never live in CA

qqq14:04:54

Anyone here tried AWS CodeStar with Clojure?

mobileink17:04:18

Reason #42 why I would love to live in SF: it would mean I'm filthy rich

tbaldridge17:04:51

Eh...I've done the math, cost of living is so high in SF that it offsets most (if not all) of the higher pay you would get there.

qqq17:04:00

@tbaldridge : does cognitect pay that well? Here's what Google pays: http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-salary-is-hurting-startups/ in my opinion, someone of your calibre would be at the Staff Engineer (400k) or Senior Staff (500k+) level

qqq17:04:13

distinguished engineer would be harder ; for that, I think you'd have to invent a new language, so maybe Rich Hickey would reach that level

mobileink17:04:22

If I were living in SF, it would mean I'm signing the paychecks, haha.

tbaldridge18:04:59

Nah, I was more talking about the cost of living in SF. Property is about 6x more expensive in SF than in Denver, and about 12x more expensive than where I lived in Madison, WI. Food, transit times, etc, also play a part.

tbaldridge18:04:42

And the tech scene is still pretty big in Madison and Denver, it's just not a "hip" as SF. So sure i may be able to make more by living elsewhere, but it's not worth the cost in the long run.

qqq18:04:19

Oh right, you have a house (and thus probably a family too). I was just thinking "renting a 2bd room apartment cost", not "buy house + mortgage + children" costs.

tbaldridge18:04:58

Yeah, so that's the hidden cost of Silicon Valley right? "Put your life on hold and give it to us". I worked for some non-profits earlier in my life, and that killed any desire I had to "sacrifice for the company".

tbaldridge18:04:30

I have several friends who have done that though, and it's worked out okay. The whole "60 hours a week until we bootstrap this company" then cash in and take a 1 year vacation.

roberto18:04:37

hehehe, yeah, I’m not into sacrificing myself anymore.

roberto18:04:22

I’m happy to work 40 hours a week, live in a rural area, have a house with a large yard for my family and dogs. The big city life doesn’t entice me.

tbaldridge18:04:54

I hear that, I'm that crazy guy who fights the HOA in his spare time, and complains about the local teen who took off his muffler and likes to drive his car at 10pm. 🙂

roberto18:04:45

yes!!!! Those kids annoy me. And the ones with harleys are the worst

roberto18:04:55

I can hear them come up my road from a mile away

dpsutton18:04:58

"The president of my HOA also maintains my logic engine". What a cool sentence

qqq18:04:31

@tbaldridge : if you had a twin, and the two of you alternated shifts, and pretended to be one person, you could split the 400k / year salary and probably still come out ahead 🙂

roberto18:04:03

you still have 2x the expenses

qqq18:04:39

only if you have a family

qqq18:04:48

otherwise it's just company food

roberto18:04:00

yes, which is what I think he said.

qqq18:04:08

well i guess if no family, working 80 hr weeks is fine

qqq18:04:16

yeah, this trick doesn't work

mobileink18:04:34

marry a programmer, split the work.

mobileink18:04:25

memo to youngsters: beware of "fast-paced environment" looking for "dedicated self-starters".

tbaldridge18:04:01

just beware of 90% of startups, lol

mobileink18:04:27

heh. what's the diff between a sweat shop and a startup? air conditioning.

qqq18:04:58

sweat shops don't try to convince you you're changing the world

wiseman19:04:51

not just startups, either. if i still worked at google i’d probably be divorced, or at least missing spending time with my son

mobileink19:04:58

but your diet would be rich in fruits and leafy greens!

mobileink19:04:17

@qqq and ping-pong tables.

qqq19:04:32

ping-pong tables are important; I hear they're high in fiber

mobileink19:04:11

the good news: universities figgered out that java is a bad 1st language. the bad news: they think javascript is a good 1st language. :( https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/04/24/universities-finally-realize-java-bad-introductory-programming-language/#.tnw_wLDAzaRn

jsa-aerial20:04:06

Wow - that's a 'Out of the frying pan and into the fire' if ever there was one...

mobileink20:04:38

you can say that again. let's check back in a few years and see just how twisted those young minds are.

mobileink20:04:50

"alert('Hello, world!');" - so simple! what could possibly go wrong?

mobileink20:04:06

classic bait and switch

fellshard20:04:52

"because it's ubiquitous" Yeah, well, you get a kid growing up thinking spontaneous type coercion is normal and OK.

fellshard20:04:33

Bring back Scheme / Racket. 😞

mobileink20:04:13

js is the assembler language of the web. if i were king i would make nasm the intro language. but only for 8 weeks, before moving to Scheme.

qqq20:04:13

I think it makes absolute sense.

qqq20:04:51

Suppose your goal is to maximize avg student salary; then you want to maximize chance of successful startup; and for that, javascript is probably the ideal language to start with.

jsa-aerial20:04:19

Hmmmm, what could possibly go wrong? 1 + "hi" => "1hi", 1 - "hi" => NaN, [1,2,3]["0"] => 1, then there are the insane scope rules, and ...

jsa-aerial20:04:57

python would be about the same for both of those, and overall better

roberto20:04:59

are universities a bootcamp now?

jsa-aerial20:04:35

that's been true for some time now...

qqq20:04:08

I personally think CS theory is great, but if the Univ is to help students get jobs, JS is a great langauge to start with.

qqq20:04:35

For internship after freshmen year; what would be more useful, 1 year of js or 1 year of scheme 🙂 // and I love scheme //

roberto20:04:15

that is not enough information to make a decision

roberto20:04:31

it could be a very crappy year.

mobileink20:04:23

its the difference between training and education. some "educational" institutions think it is their job to prepare students to get a job. that's training. others think it is their job to teach students to think; that's education. if you've learned to think you can always get a job. if you've merely learned a skill then you're a coal miner

mobileink20:04:41

i'm kinda shocked that Stanford of all places would go in this direction.

qqq20:04:33

What's most likely to produce the next Snapchat? teaching freshmens scheme or teaching freshmen javascript ?

jsa-aerial21:04:57

There is zero reason to believe that either (or any language) would have any effect on such an outcome

qqq20:04:17

If I was in charge of an university, first year CS would consist of : (1) javascript (2) google app engine and (3) react 🙂

roberto20:04:18

teaching good solid CS principles

roberto20:04:25

that is a trade school

roberto20:04:29

and it is fine

roberto20:04:35

but I expect more out of a university

qqq20:04:40

anyone that understood good CS principles would say "there's no fucking way to make images vanish -- and never create snapchat"

roberto20:04:48

i think you are wrong there

roberto20:04:28

--- says someone that studied CS at a university (20 years ago) and has written web apps and desktop apps

qqq20:04:01

I'm not sure if your argument is: (1) teaching JS as a first langauge does NOT produce founders or (2) CS should not cater to producing rounders

mobileink20:04:05

computer science is not about programming languages.

mobileink21:04:08

training produces useful people: they can compute without understanding the nature of computatuon, just like a trained welder can join metal with no understanding of what she's really doing. education produces people who understand the nature of computation, and so can compute in any language. who would you rather hire?

qqq22:04:25

@mobileink : I do; if a University has a high rate of producing successful tech founders, I'd certainly prefer attending that University to one that only produced employees

mobileink22:04:51

nuttin wrong with that, except maybe calling it a "University"

fellshard22:04:32

> computer science is not about programming languages. And yet - like any language - the language you use shapes the way you think. I'm of the opinion that teaching Javascript as a primary, initial language may have some detrimental effects.

mobileink22:04:53

howsabout a unversity that produces good citizens, no matter what profession they take up?

fellshard22:04:25

Good citizenship is not the responsibility of a university; after all, then some may not be able to afford to become good citizens.

qqq22:04:45

@fellshard : I agree that javascript is NOT the ideal first langauge for producing engineers; hwoever, I beleive much of recent startups is basically throwing shit against a wall and see what sticks; -- and the sooner students learn JS, the sooner they can fling shit

mobileink22:04:56

what does, "afford to become good citizens" mean? citizenship is free.

fellshard22:04:06

If university's role is to produce 'good citizens', as mentioned above, it's essentially splitting citizenship into classes: the intellectual elite, and the uneducated benighted. That doesn't sound like a great recipe for a stable country.

fellshard22:04:53

> the sooner they can fling shit - An accurate description 😛 But even if JS is justified as being a reasonable 'trade language', we would then need to distinguish between 'trade developers' and 'computational engineers'.

fellshard22:04:23

After all, I wouldn't want a trade developer working on a system requiring stringent engineering constraints - security, reliability, etc.

mobileink22:04:52

@fellshard so you're against education?

qqq22:04:05

@fellshard : you teach that in years 2, 3, 4 🙂 ; we already ahve a world where graduates work for dropouts 🙂

fellshard22:04:14

Not at all, I just don't believe education is requisite to being a good citizen 🙂

fellshard22:04:33

Nor that the education inherently makes you a good citizen, nor is capable of doing so.

mobileink22:04:38

did i say that????

qqq22:04:39

@mobileink : by "good citizen" do you mean "morals parents should teach their children" ?

fellshard22:04:10

> howsabout a unversity that produces good citizens, no matter what profession they take up?

fellshard22:04:29

Probably just a matter of definitions.

fellshard22:04:37

I'm reading too much into it, no worries

fellshard22:04:13

And everyone's immediate reaction is 'omg greed'

qqq22:04:05

s/everyone/everyone who hasn't actually started a company and realized how difficult that first $ is 🙂

fellshard22:04:04

But business owners are evil!

fellshard22:04:05

But yeah, that should be incredible news for us in general, since a lot of these small businesses that could crop up will likely be in need of strong technical skill.