@beppu: so the only reason I did not go with space-macs was that it seemed too magical

It's definitely a radical reconfiguration.

qqq is always off-topic 😛

lol

I gotta take some of the blame.

The thing is, though, all the classic emacs keybindings are still there.

I also recently swithed from emacs to clojure

err, from vim to meacs

I used vim for 15+ years, then saw someone develop clojure in emacs using cider, and went 'oh shit'

That's the main reason I'm using Emacs now too. Emacs integration w/ Clojure tools is better than what's available in vim.

then I spent a month learning elisp / configuring emacs from scratch

and elisp power is amaxing

do you have speedbar working?

for navigation, the most important plugin I'm using right now is neotree

In spacemacs, they prefer neotree over speedbar, so I use that instead.

but neotree operates on directories/fikles

can neotree look "inside a file" ?

I used to use speedbar before though.

that'd be insane

if neotree could display functions inside a file, instead of smallest unit = file, I'd be so happy

I don't think neotree is that fancy.

so I think with speedbar, it's possible to look into afile

so my ideal setup would be as follows

----------
| a | .   main .   | b |

For some languages, speedbar has magical integrations that let you look at the files contents (usually in the form of a function list)

I wouldn't use both at the same time.

That's like having a car with two steering wheels.

one is for jumping between files

the other is for jumping between functions within the file

I get what you're saying.

anyway; any idea how do get function list into speedbar ?

I don't know off hand.

omg

I got it working 🙂

magic function: speedbar-add-supported-extension

you just run that function?

(speedbar 1) (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".cljc") (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".clj") (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".cljs")

then you have to click the + folder on the file name

and it'll show all top level definitions

next up: get it working with sr-speedbar, so it's not an external winfdow

Nice. That worked for me too.

(gonna be afk for a bit. need to go to grocery store before it closes.)

anyone here know how speedbar parses a clj file to decide what the 'headers' are?

@qqq This seems to indicate imenu is involved. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19239604/speedbar-defn-clojure-mode The relevant lines from clojure-mode might be: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L480-Lundefined and https://github.com/clojure-emacs/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L648-L671

@beppu: I think you're right -- I was just looking at

(defvar speedbar-fetch-etags-parse-list
  '(;; Note that java has the same parse-group as c
    ("\\.\\([cChH]\\|c\\+\\+\\|cpp\\|cc\\|hh\\|java\\|cxx\\|hxx\\)\\'" .
     speedbar-parse-c-or-c++tag)
    ("^\\.emacs$\\|.\\(el\\|l\\|lsp\\)\\'" .
     "def[^i]+\\s-+\\(\\(\\w\\|[-_]\\)+\\)\\s-*\C-?")
;    ("\\.\\([fF]\\|for\\|FOR\\|77\\|90\\)\\'" .
;      speedbar-parse-fortran77-tag)
    ("\\.tex\\'" . speedbar-parse-tex-string)
    ("\\.p\\'" .
     "\\(\\(FUNCTION\\|function\\|PROCEDURE\\|procedure\\)\\s-+\\([a-zA-Z0-9_.:]+\\)\\)\\s-*(?^?")
    )
  "Associations of file extensions and expressions for extracting tags.
To add a new file type, you would want to add a new association to the
list, where the car is the file match, and the cdr is the way to
extract an element from the tags output.  If the output is complex,
use a function symbol instead of regexp.  The function should expect
to be at the beginning of a line in the etags buffer.

This variable is ignored if `speedbar-use-imenu-flag' is non-nil.")

Jesus Christ. regexps look so nasty in elisp due to all the escaping.

@beppu: the SO answer you posted links to imenu -- and imenu is amazing for jumping in clj files

it's M-x imenu , type in name of func / var you want to jump to in the file, and BAM

amazing

let me try...

oooohh... nice. Thanks for the tip @qqq.

turns out spacemacs has nice imenu bindings. SPC j i for an imenu of the current buffer and SPC j I for an imenu of all buffers.

damn, just three keystrokes, that SPC key is really awesome

i'm very tempted to try out spacemacs just for that

oh, that's why ti's named "space" macs

exactly!

The space menu is genius. I gotta give that guy credit for coming up w/ a nice way to organize keybindings.

The leader key is a plain vim concept I think.

It's the leader key idea + a system for key combo discovery. In vi, the UI is largely invisible. In Spacemacs, you get hints as you traverse the tree of key combinations.

@beppu: exactly, the thing I've come to love about emacs/hydra is C-h k, C-h f tends to work much better than reading vim docs (since vimdocs don't reflect my ~/.vimrc configs) -- and having the 'hotkey hints' is life changing, whereas in vim it was "memorize everything"

Good morning, @qqq.

@beppu: I can't overstress how cool it is that we stumbled across speedbar/imenu yesterday; it's life changing, already something part of my workflow, and I can't imagine not having it

I too am happy about the imenu discovery. That helps speed up navigation a lot.

Using unite, you can do :Unite mapping

you guys can all just use Cursive and not have to remember any of that stuff or install anything or type any arcane combinations i'll see myself out

@notanon Is Cursive it's own independent IDE now or is it still a part of IntelliJ?

Or other (I may have my wires crossed here)?

it's part of IntelliJ, it's actually a plugin for IntelliJ

And this? https://cursive-ide.com/

thats it

it's a plugin for free intellij

Ah, just clicked on download

it's... amazing

shows intelliJ as the prerequisite

Do you know off hand what the costs are?

free for non-commericial

100 or 250 or something for commericial? dunno

Is the 100/250 for the intellij portion for commercial use?

cursive

intellij community edition is f/oss

no license even for commericial

you might be thinkg of intellij enterprise

ok cool

which would also work with cursive, but you dont need the enterprise version

just a bunch of JavaEE stuff

aka bloat

It also contains the web stuff, which is the bit you’re most likely to want (JS support etc)

If you don’t care about that, community is fine.

intellij community edition can install the same js plugins as the enterprise version

No, it can’t.

we use it at my work for angularjs/node dev

JS support is ultimate only.

we stopped using enterprise cuz it was the same

just install the plugins, i promise it works 😉

oh wow

nvm

i just opened a js file

And got plain text? 🙂

LOL yeah

when did they start doing this?

Ummm - 10 years ago, maybe?

🙂

I know someone else mentioned using Atom with ProtoREPL

lightable is also pretty good

Web dev has always been an Ultimate feature.

And what about LightTable? Any good?

this is ridicilous, even when I move from #clojure to #ott-topic, I can't stop hearing the praises of cursive

lol

i used lighttable when i first started clojure

the editor-is-a-repl blew my mind

I'm so tempted, is there a wya to use emacsx, but have it talk to cursive instead of cider ?

but it's super key-binding-y

I like cursive too, but beyond personal use, I'd go something free like light table (although I use emacs)

I still want my emacs-as-OS setup, but willing to run cursive if I can talk to it via emacs

^ spacemacs + clojure layer, I think it's complete enough

you guys are crazy 🙂

ill just never understand

give me my windows and widgets and panels and gui

you can keep your shortcuts

it's about ability to program it

exactly 🙂

you all dishonor Xerox PARC and Alan Kay, his Holiness by not using GUIs 🙂

go use smalltalk 🙂

i use something pretty close but better

I like GUIs, it's takes away the boredom once in a while

even my terminal, I use Guake, because it's a beautiful GUI terminal

that looks nice

also check apricity os, it's a beautiful gui for arch 😄

see, I told you I like guis

XD

looks nice and minimal

yes, and good thing we're on off-topic channel, hahaha

spacemacs is also beautiful btw 😛

@cfleming: are there public numbers on the free / personal / corporate split of cursive? (I'm just curious as I never would have thought it possible for someone to build a company building dev tools in the age of open source)

(percent wise)

@qqq No public numbers, but I sell way more commercial licences than personal which surprised me. More free ones than anything, which didn’t surprise me.

lol was i back-talking someone from cursive?

i really will see myself out now

Actually, the only one from Cursive 🙂

Here’s the office of a company making dev tools: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvVCV4kh-Q

@notanon: yeah, your cursive install is now going to remotely self destruct for arguing with @cfleming

(one of their many offices, at that)

yeah good thing i'm registered under @qqq

@cfleming: cursive's success is changing the way I look at software companies; I used to reason "if there's one group of ppl who can write their own tools; it's open source devs" therefore "impossible to sell tools to open source devs" -- yet, cursive's debugging ability beats available options, and everyone loves it

the flaw in that reasoning... is i want to write software, not software to write software

so thx cfleming for doing it for me 🙂

@notanon: sure, but as N (the # of devs using a langauge goes up), so the the probability that atleast one of them decides to wirte their own open source tool

What @notanon said - lots of people want to do their actual work rather than develop their editor, and lots of companies are willing to pay to not have their devs wasting their time.

I guess the flaw in my reasoning that I underestimated the difficulty of writing a fully featured ide/debugger

Yeah, it’s a lot of work.

I could keep a team of 4 busy for a year, just on Cursive.

And while OSS is great, lots of it lacks the polish that you get with JetBrains tools. You can make it all work, but it usually requires time to do so.

^^

Some people like spending that time, lots don’t, and are willing to pay to avoid doing so.

i used to think eclipse was the greatest freaking thing on the planet

and then i downloaded webstorm

Completely agree there. The JetBrains tool set does look very polished

And a lot of variety in offerings

Yeah, they make a ton of tools now.

i worry too many tools now

they wrote their own language

hope they keep pumping out the updates i actually care about

Yes - it’s awesome 🙂

haha really?

Yup

I have no reason to use Java any more.

Except that the IntelliJ tooling is still much better for it.

Isn't that what Clojure is for 😉

Hehe

Sadly, not in all cases.

No, I guess not 🙂

lol

What is JetBrains' own language?

kotlin

Ah, enough said

https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/comparison-to-java.html

when they announced it...

Quite a few cfml devs have been looking into it recently

i just dismiss anything with types now

i dont know why anyone wants types ever

Kotlin is solid if you're working with Java more directly

Superb focus on interop

And high degree of focus on Android compatibility / tuning

Language-wise it covers the failings of Java very well

But it's no Clojure :^)

So all I need to do is really learn Clojure, Java, Scala and Kotlin and I'll be safe in the job market

lol

unless apple kills android

not gonna happen

I love my android phone

android is like 95% of the market

Wouldn't buy an apple for anything 🙂

^^

deving for android is a pain

so may phones to test

Not that it's necessarily a bad company / product set. Just not my cup of tea

@yogidevbear IMO if you learn Kotlin you can probably ditch Scala from that list.

Although it probably helps for the job safety aspect

I tried doing the scala specialisation on coursera and found it overly complicated just to get started

The sbt seemed a bit of a PITA

No doubt

Any ideas what the job market is like for Kotlin? Guessing not that high yet as it's relatively new?

jetbrains might have a position or two lol

hahhaha

Their offices do look swanky 😉

Putting an added spin on that earlier link: https://www.indeed.com/jobtrends/q-clojure-q-scala-q-kotlin.html

scala surprises me

i thought people gave up on it

It got a lot of traction in companies in the UK at least

anyone think Kotlin will beet it?

i think languages that try to support OOP and Functional are hard to pull off

The idea was Scala has incredibly high ramp-up but could possibly afford great benefits at that point. But those benefits haven't really been realized as much as hoped, iirc.

you're just confusing your developers

And its interop is... horrid.

Kotlin's what I'd call a pragmatic improvement. It's nowhere near functional, but affords many utilities that let it lean towards a function-passing style where useful, in a way that's much nicer than Java's piss-poor lambdas.

Primarily because it introduces a single 'Function' abstraction instead of fragmenting everything into functional interfaces.

Which aren't composable or reusable, and do not allow you to abstract a single piece of computation for multiple purposes.

It's caulk to Java's leaky foundation.

looks better than java ill give it that

i just wish it wasnt jetbrains doing it

diverting my $$$ for yet another language 😞

No $$$ needed 🙂

Good IDE support built in from community up

ah really? well that makes me feel better

Thanks for the input guys. Really appreciate. I'm off to bed now though. Catch you later 😴

Spent ~ the latter half of 2015 mildly curious about Kotlin, the first half of 2016 trying and evangelizing it, and the latter half of 2016 obsessed with Clojure. The latter is sticking pretty well, though 😛

i can't go back to place-oriented programming

programming hundreds of tiny state machines makes my head hurt now

For an average Java dev team that you're trying to help think past their limited Java horizons, Kotlin will be an easier sell than Clojure. But Kotlin might also serve as a stepping stone on that road.

definitely an easier sell, but why bother

i can check for nulls on my own 😄

the ide generates bean properties

if i want to do functional programming... lambdas etc

kotlin is not much better than java, no?

not trying to play devils advocate or anything... just dont see it

Again - Kotlin uses a single 'Function' abstraction for its lambdas, as opposed to Java which basically just uses lambdas as a cleaner wrapper around Single Abstract Method interface implementations, i.e. anonymous implementations

It allows extension methods to be defined, something seen in C# for example, and which allows much cleaner interfaces when connecting two domains. It's not quite the protocols from Clojure, but enough to be utilitarian.

Instead of passing around an Integer Predicate, I can pass around an int -> boolean. Instead of passing around a custom implementation of some interface in Java, I can pass around an (S, T) -> Unit

It uses the same names / types for all things 'function', instead of dropping down to the level of abstraction of the thing that needs to call said function.

So you're not constantly bouncing up and down the abstraction scale.

In that way alone it is greatly superior to Java.

Plus the new tools and core libs it provides tend to leverage functional parameters much more effectively than Java did with all its half-ass collections modifications.

Much more like the kind of stuff Guava was trying to do, except better integrated.

Also, maybe this could go to #other-languages 🙂