are blacklist and whitelist racist terms?

@bcbradley no. It's got nothing to do with race or skin colour. The roots of the two terms are completely different. Blacklist: originally a list made by King Charles II of judges who sentenced his father to death. Whitelist: probably originally a list kept by unions of people suitable for employment. People shouldn't really equate them to race simply because they have the name of two colours in them

But, its so easy, black = black people, white = white people. So blacklist has to be racist, its obvious, isnt it? No need to start thinking. Just propagate what media tells you /s

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I don’t think it’s correct to only consider the origination of a word when determining if it’s considered racist. You also have to consider how it is received and interpreted in colloquial use, particularly by historically marginalized people. Language evolves. I think it’s more important to give deference to the perceptions of historically marginalized people that defend an uncertain etymology.

Being willing to think about and change our language, even unnecessarily, in service of broadening our diversity is a good thing.

Personally, I use allow-list and deny-list nowadays, both to that end and because they’re simply more clear

i've never found it a problem to adjust my language, and i'm always slightly puzzled when people fight really hard to maintain the status quo, for whatever reason

it's usually a very small adjustment, takes a short amount of time to become second nature, makes almost zero difference to my daily life and makes a world of difference to other people

Huh, I always thought whitelist and blacklist were based on the properties of light in regards to those shades … though I guess that was just a random assumption

I just cannot believe that people explicitly use the term blacklist in the context of computer science to exclude black people from whatever. It does not even make sense.

And please be aware that I use the term "black people" here for illustrating purpose only. For me every human being is the same. Thats why it is even harder for me to follow all that racism stuff. I dont deny that racism exists and is a problem. Its just that I think it is always a better strategy to stand up and stand to yourself.

All that categorising stuff is insane anyway. When I was young I had long hair, was wearing leather jackets, doc martens with coloured shoelace and people usually put me into the left wing group. Today I almost have no more hair and look more like a skinhead. So when people see me they might put me into the right wing. But nothing about me changed, just the looks, but not me. If you want equality, stop categorizing things. If you categorize black as "bad" its not any better.

But everyone knows if you see a wizard in black robes they are evil! Regardless of their skin color. #wizardprejudice

It's the intent that matters, not the words. I don't think it helps broaden diversity to pander to everyone's sensibilities, quite the opposite.

I haven't come across blacklist/whitelist being used in a hateful way, or anyone taking offense at those terms, but perhaps thats what @bcbradley was originally asking - if it had come to be used in such a way.

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I’ve worked with a person of color who specifically expressed disquiet at those terms. Fully aware of the etymology, yet expressing an averse emotional reaction all the same.

Intent isn’t a magical quality; the only way anyone can divine it is specifically by interpreting words

I don't think it should only be down to the receiver to interpret. If I'd offended someone, I'd want to know why, in order to avoid possibly offending more people.

If someone calls me nerd, should I feel offended or not? And how does the one saying nerd know how I feel about it beforehand? Except I explicitly told him before. There is probably a million words around the globe that might or might not offend someone. How do we plan to clean every language of every offending word? There is a big difference between teaching kids to use the "right" language and teaching kids to be polite, respectful, welcoming, tolerant, etc... Obviously its the second option you want to teach and not turn your kid into a word censoring machine.

I think you can do both

Why are you people always in search of things to be offended at? Just code and live your life in peace...

"right" often means different things in different contexts @donaldball, it's part of getting to know people. Overreaction from either side can hurt that process.

This is going to dissolve into a not-so-discussion on oversensitivity and actively seeking problems in places they don't exist.

Look for real problems, first, not imagined ones based on arbitrary pattern-matching.

You could look at the English idiom "it's black and white", which is equivalent to something like "it's plain as day," or "it's clear as crystal." Should that, too, give offense?

Color is not first or primarily associated with skin or race. If that is your first thought, do some contemplation and look at the world around you. You might find that in most people's minds, that's by far not the first place the mind goes to with respect to uses of color.

Anything further you find is a construct you're creating, a perspective you're giving yourself that does not accurately reflect reality and will only embitter yourself towards others unnecessarily.

This discussion started when someone asked if blacklist and whitelist had come to be associated with skin or race (words can be hijacked for different purposes, or mean different things to different people). I jumped in when it switched quite generally to - change our language "for whatever reason", "even unnecessarily", just because someone happens to take offense to it.

It's a modern trend, and it only serves to stifle discussion. 😐

Instead of suppressing terms that make individuals uncomfortable, learning to move past that discomfort without ill will is critical for dealing with real people who actually intend to be offensive and need to be properly confronted.

no one said "for whatever reason" or "even unnecessarily"

I took it out of context slightly, which wasn't totally fair.

But I felt it was drifting in that direction.