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#off-topic
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2015-06-05
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lowl4tency05:06:28

Good morning simple_smile

gjnoonan05:06:50

Morning yes, good no simple_smile

lowl4tency05:06:57

adulteratedjedi: ha, PHP are much better than tons bash-scripts with several thousands lines =(

lowl4tency05:06:36

ul: messages with /me work even for Skype simple_smile

ul05:06:51

really? never tried

lowl4tency06:06:30

ul: we've had a chat in Skype on my previously job and it've worked. Now it might be changed. Not sure for real

ul06:06:57

it works, just checked

lowl4tency06:06:54

ul: yesterday you said about the invite to bb, but I've been seeing nothing from yesterday

ul06:06:54

okay, i will make repo public, only add note about that cleanup PRs are highly appreciated )))

lowl4tency06:06:37

ul: do you have a twiiter account?

stian09:06:28

auch, yahoo pipes shutting down.. whoever is running planet clojure got a major job ahead (333 yahoo pipes) 😕

erichmond11:06:02

@borkdude: Yes, I started using rails in 2004, in Boston, and back there there were like 20 of us @ boston.rb meetings. Everyone thought I was crazy for leaving Java, and risking my startup on ruby/rails, etc

erichmond11:06:20

In fact, I’d say it wasn’t until 2010-ish when things really got cooking in the ruby community

erichmond11:06:09

I’m not sure clojure will get there, just because there is a language explosion right now and there’s way more competition. Back then it was almost literally java, php, coldfusion or ruby

seancorfield18:06:08

@erichmond: interesting to see CFML (ColdFusion) in that list from 2004...

seancorfield18:06:17

I joined Macromedia in 2000 and they bought Allaire so my team (of Java and C++ devs) were "forced" to build some large apps with ColdFusion, just as it was transitioning from a proprietary C++ engine to a JVM-based one (essentially compile-on-demand, like Clojure).

erichmond18:06:55

Oh wow! Yeah, I first used ColdFusion back in 1997? maybe. I was working an internship for some startup and it was my first paid gig that wasn't consulting, and I remember thinking... what beast is this? (my previous experience was C/Pascal/Java). Once I left there tho, I didn't use it much. In Boston people seemed dismissive of it, but it was actually a really smart idea at the time (IMO).

erichmond18:06:59

I think I was hardcoding database connections directly in code at that point. MUAHA.

seancorfield18:06:55

Today there are three open source implementations (Open BlueDragon, Railo, Lucee — the latter is a fork of Railo), and it has evolved a lot...

erichmond18:06:24

I can imagine. It was essentially HTML with loops and var substitution when I used it

seancorfield18:06:13

…there’s a powerful JS-like scripting language now, with closures and member functions on data structures (map / reduce / filter etc) so it feels like most other modern languages simple_smile

erichmond18:06:39

Wow, thats super interesting! Is it still going strong?

seancorfield18:06:47

Unfortunately its tag-based / C++ heritage has tarnished its image and most people dismiss it based on what they knew of its old versions.

seancorfield18:06:53

Yeah, Adobe bought Macromedia and released versions 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 and are planning 12. Railo really moved the language forward (and Macromedia / Adobe mostly followed their lead). Railo stalled last year (management issues) and Lucee is kind of the hot new version http://lucee.org

seancorfield18:06:14

They don’t even say it’s CFML on their home page simple_smile

seancorfield18:06:59

At World Singles our dating platform is running on Railo and our application Model is about 50/50 CFML/Clojure now.

seancorfield18:06:47

The latest Lucee version is OSGi-based, modular, and JSR-223 compliant, which is a huge departure from even the previous JVM versions.

erichmond18:06:40

A clojure/CFML app must win “most diverse app toolchain”

erichmond18:06:49

although, to your point, I am imagining CFML from the 90s

borkdude18:06:36

do most developers like to work in a different framework every month?

borkdude18:06:38

just sanity checking simple_smile

teslanick18:06:27

I don't like working in frameworks.

erichmond18:06:51

This is a legit reason why I am moving to clojurescript. JS framework frenzy is at 10/10 right now.

erichmond18:06:14

but to answer, I think yes, most younger developers do

seancorfield18:06:24

@erichmond: here’s a paste of one of our CFML functions https://www.refheap.com/102130 — the core variable is shorthand for the clojure.core ns and WS is shorthand for our top-level worldsingles ns… so that function is a mix of cfscript and Clojure simple_smile

mystery18:06:29

Yeah I prefer small libraries. The more I have to learn to use a piece of software, the less I care to touch it.

erichmond18:06:46

Wow, that is pretty clean

erichmond18:06:05

I actually don’t mind Frameworks or IDEs, but I only prefer to use them if there are good backwards compatibility and sane deprecation times.

seancorfield18:06:10

I don’t mind frameworks if they’re small, simple, and convention-based. Something that helps but generally gets out of my way.

agile_geek18:06:57

Not surprised to see this community favouring small libraries over frameworks given the it’s easier to compose functions to provide required functionality than objects. However, frameworks lower the bar to entry for development and larger orgs see the advantage in that.

agile_geek18:06:25

The interesting question is should the bar be lowered and if so, how far?

borkdude19:06:05

In my case I had to learn Ruby on Rails for one project and today I was asked to learn Python/Django for a new 5-day project...

borkdude19:06:23

I think that's wasted time

erichmond19:06:01

Yeah, that is a tough position

borkdude19:06:06

luckily someone else volunteered who was already familiar with it 😉

borkdude19:06:26

I'd rather focus on clojure/script

agile_geek19:06:08

@borkdude 5 days? Presumably that’s something pretty trivial or enhancing something that already exists? I question how effective anyone can be in a language they’ve just learned and only have to ‘practice’ for 5 days?

borkdude19:06:12

@agile_geek: I know some Python and from what I've seen today skimming Django looks similar to Rails, but still it'd probably take some more time to become effective in a new stack

agile_geek19:06:48

I take months to become effective and several years to become really efficient. However, I am old and a bit slow 😉

borkdude19:06:08

@agile_geek: maybe I'm becoming old too 😃

lowl4tency19:06:26

Which one IDE do you use?

agile_geek20:06:11

Emacs for Clojure

mystery20:06:56

I use Emacs for writing code, and Textmate for reading it + some types of refactoring

lowl4tency20:06:09

What about IDEA or LightTable?

mystery20:06:54

I hear they're both really cool

akiva20:06:17

Spacemacs.

lowl4tency20:06:57

mystery: I found cursive - IDEA plugin for clojure

mystery20:06:04

Oh man. I kinda wanna touch spacemacs.

teslanick20:06:05

Cursive here too

mystery20:06:27

Yeah, I think if you want a nice comfy IDE experience, Cursive maaaaay be the best?

akiva20:06:28

Spacemacs is the best, Jerry. The BEST!

mystery20:06:30

I might play around with it next week. Whatever emacs thing I'm using at home is really bad. It crashes whenever a menu comes up? I've just been dealing with it because I'm literally the worst developer known to man so it doesn't bother me.

mystery20:06:43

But I should at least switch to Aquamacs, which I've been using at work and has been nice

akiva20:06:56

Actually, brew install emacs-mac.

mystery20:06:10

Hmmm...I seeeeeee

akiva20:06:20

It’s solid.

mystery20:06:46

Cool, thanks for the hint. I'm super new to emacs, so the help's appreciated.

akiva20:06:12

Me too, actually. I’ve been using vi/vim since before the dawn of man. But Spacemacs red rover’d me a few months ago.

mystery20:06:39

I tried vi/vim, and it just didn't feel as right to me.

mystery20:06:04

Though ultimately I think it really just boils down to me liking to press ctrl and meta more than :, haha

jarofghosts20:06:22

once you are embroiled into vim's way of thinking there is no turning back

arrdem20:06:27

I haven’t used spacemacs...

arrdem20:06:30

but emacs for mac is OK

arrdem20:06:43

I have a shake and bake config that isn’t specific to me if you want it

arrdem20:06:53

will yet transition to intellij

lowl4tency20:06:58

akiva: spacemacs looks amazing

mystery20:06:38

Yeaaa, I have a marked weakness for trying the shiniest tools, burning myself, and running back to what I was using before so that spacemacs looks NICE.

akiva20:06:07

There’s a bit of a learning curve but it’s well worth it. Helm and Projectile are killer together.

clem20:06:24

spacemacs does look interesting — I’m not going to shake vi keybindings from my muscle memory in this lifetime. Are there emacs ways of handling breakpoints in Clojure?

akiva20:06:49

Yeah, evil mode in Emacs is essential although I’ve found it isn’t 100% faithful.

arrdem20:06:53

clj-debugger just became part of CIDER

arrdem20:06:05

I just broke my Vim habits when I switched 😛

akiva20:06:05

And, yes, what the @arrdem just typed.

akiva20:06:12

Not the second thing.

arrdem20:06:14

still the occasional stray ESC but I’m slowly recovering

akiva20:06:18

[sets @arrdem on fire]

arrdem20:06:30

I am in fact a heretic

akiva20:06:57

And you must be double-jointed to handle Emacs’ WordStar 2000 style finger gymnastics.

arrdem20:06:05

be careful, I was nice back in #C03RZGPG1, but this is #C03RZGPG3 😛

mystery20:06:41

My 1 month stint with Emacs has made me a world class guitarist real talk I can pick like a champ now I quit programming to become a rich rock star

borkdude20:06:07

emacs + cursive here.

akiva20:06:23

By the way, in case any of you guys start having specific questions about IDEs/editors/etc, there is an #C050AN6QW channel.

mystery20:06:28

You use both, Bork? Hm.

arrdem20:06:55

#C050AN6QW has mainly been me and cfleming plotting how to make Clojure faster 😛

borkdude20:06:05

yeah, I use cursive where it shines: detecting erroneous arity calls, refactoring namespaces, getting rid of unused arguments

arrdem20:06:44

https://www.refheap.com/102133 <- ready go go self installing osx emacs config in a box

mystery20:06:08

I think that's really cool. Different editors definitely have different strengths for sure, so I bet that approach works awesome.

akiva20:06:59

I use lein trampoline autoexpect for all instant feedback on compile-time issues.

borkdude20:06:12

@akiva: I've got to check that out

arrdem20:06:22

I 10/10 suggest the lein-cloverage plugin

akiva20:06:26

expectations is by far my favorite testing framework

arrdem20:06:43

because test coverage metrics are a thing

mystery20:06:56

I should write some tests this weekend

arrdem20:06:09

tests are good

akiva20:06:13

I’ve heard of tests.

mystery20:06:18

"should" "tests" "write"

agile_geek20:06:25

I’ve looked briefly at expectations. Like look of it. matcha looks cool too.

akiva20:06:54

I appreciate the terseness.

borkdude20:06:37

is that inspired by rspec etc?

akiva20:06:26

A little bit. It drops all of the it-should pseudo-DSL wrapperplate.

borkdude20:06:34

I tend to use just clojure.test... all that fancyness is just distraction imho

arrdem20:06:52

clojure.test and test.check is all I ever reach for.

arrdem20:06:59

test.check is bae

akiva20:06:08

I really need to get into test.check.

arrdem20:06:42

it works well for some things. not so well for others.

akiva20:06:05

Yeah. I’d use it in a specialist sort of way.

arrdem20:06:00

“for all possible strings does it parse"

arrdem20:06:27

“for all possible bindings do they alias correctly"

clem20:06:32

We’ve had mixed results with cloverage. There are certain areas of our code that just cause it to crash. The github site has a number of patches submitted but I don’t know if the project owner is going to accept them.

arrdem20:06:55

Yeah I’ve had to rewrite code so that cloverage can analyze it before.

arrdem20:06:10

Project looks pretty inactive… forking time pls?

arrdem20:06:26

now you have N+1 projects to maintain

lowl4tency20:06:31

akiva: As far as I understand, spacemacs are run in console?

akiva20:06:56

It can be. But I use emacs-mac from Homebrew so I’ve a super-fast GUI version.

borkdude20:06:06

@akiva: is that based on emacs cocoa thing?

nullptr20:06:21

the only emacs i know of on homebrew is the one true gnu emacs, no modifications, no filler

borkdude20:06:50

I remember having used homebrew to compile emacs cocoa from git or something

nullptr20:06:27

there's a --with-cocoa option

akiva20:06:01

This is "Mac port" addition to GNU Emacs 24. This provides a native GUI support for Mac OS X 10.4 - 10.10. Note that Emacs 23 and later already contain the official GUI support via the NS (Cocoa) port for Mac OS X 10.4 and later. So if it is good enough for you, then you don't need to try this.

lowl4tency20:06:33

akiva: I’ve installe it via brew

lowl4tency20:06:51

Is it just emacs in my Application folder?

arrdem20:06:48

so I actually never got emacs from homebrew working

arrdem20:06:00

I wound up using the emacsosx or whatever application

nullptr20:06:33

i've used emacsformacosx binaries, emacs source, and caskroom emacs -- all seem pretty much the same

nullptr20:06:52

(emacs source via homebrew)

nullptr20:06:44

making emacs work with other homebrew things requires a bit of hackery -- https://github.com/derekslager/dotfiles/blob/master/emacs.d/derek/global.el#L80

lowl4tency20:06:32

akiva: does it have clojure repl by default?

akiva21:06:26

You can, like any other version, use CIDER.

lunar22:06:58

I've never used emacs nor vim

lunar22:06:08

but spacemacs looks interesting

lunar22:06:59

does anyone have recommended resources on getting up to speed?

lunar22:06:26

(I guess I should go tinker in #C050AN6QW)

akiva22:06:40

The documentation on GitHub’s actually the best way to get going on Spacemacs.

lunar22:06:59

yeah, it definitely looks top-notch

lunar22:06:13

will start with those once I have enough mental energy to learn a new editor

chris22:06:11

Spacemacs docs are really first rate

akiva22:06:08

Yeah, they’re doing a great job.

akiva22:06:41

If I weren’t emotionally deranged, I’d help out. Also, it’d probably be a good thing if I knew more about Emacs in general. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned the first part.