Clojurians
#lumo
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2018-12-22
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ashnur02:12:18

as a beginner, should I try to work with lumo? are there any gotchas that require expert knowledge?

metacritical07:12:14

@ashnur There are tons of gotchas in Lumo. I tried to make a full electron + lumo app and i had to switch to clojurescript ( cljs -m cljs.main ) because lumo doesnt export (cljs.js/eval), and i was looking for cljs scriptability in my app, like wise you cannot use tons of useful clojure libs like reagent, for which there is no tasteful lumo or npm equivalent. Lumo is more like a Hobby compiler for javascript people to check out clojurescript with quirks.

ashnur12:12:09

so I still need java to use clojurescript fully :disappointed:

metacritical17:12:15

@ashnur That shouldnt be a problem its just another compiler than needs to be installed. When i was in ruby even i bought the propaganda but quite frankly JVM is second to none, there is no VM on the planet that can compete with Java in terms of performance. And almost indefinite amount of tuning possible. So dont buy the propaganda against JVM, Clojure is a beautiful language Installing JVM shouldn’t stop you from exploring it.

ashnur18:12:06

@metacritical "shouldn't be a problem" maybe for you it isn't. please don't tell me what is a problem for me without actually understanding the situation first :disappointed: every time i interact with clojure people i get this same ignorance. whatever works for you should be "just" good enough for others too, right?

dominicm18:12:22

Why is Java a problem for you?

ashnur18:12:46

I don't want to deploy anything on the jvm. Not on principle, but I don't want to write server-software. So I should use it for tooling only? I would rather invest time into tools that I can use for more than just compilation. If I want to get into that space, there are better choices already.

dominicm19:12:11

I would be surprised if you find installing the jdk an investment, within the context of using it only to build cljs

ashnur20:12:39

well. it is an investment, it's just not one i want to make because i feel that the benefits for me do not outweight the costs :slightly_smiling_face:

dominicm20:12:59

The costs are very small in my opinion. What do you expect the costs to be?

ashnur21:12:52

@ before I answer, may I ask you something? How much time did you invest into clojure when you learned it? How many hours weekly/monthly, an estimate? :slightly_smiling_face:

dominicm21:12:56

I don't recall. I was unemployed at the time and had free time.

ashnur22:12:28

Well, I can't quit for this :slightly_smiling_face:.

ashnur18:12:06

i didn't even say a word why it is a problem and you already broadcasting claims about performance and beauty.

ashnur18:12:42

i can completely understand why for someone who invested lot of time into a language like ruby the jvm is not an issue.

ashnur19:12:58

for example, for me, the jvm's "performance" would be running stuff in the repl and compiling. neither of which would give actual realistic feedback of what happens in production. I personally like to keep my devenv close to my prodenv. but it's really a skewed statement, because there is other performance to measure, like boot up time, or memory footprint, or what tools it allows to be used.

metacritical19:12:02

@ashnur If you want to write client software, say the next great Photoshop like app, i think you should look else where possibly C++, that will give you the most performance, JDK may not be suitable for that and by induction clojure. Even Lumo wont cut it since it runs on nodejs.

ashnur20:12:13

@metacritical not client software either, at least not in this sense. In fact, out of all possibilities, javascript is the one that's closest to what I need, simply because that it is so ubiquitous (had to look up that word :smile: )

ashnur20:12:31

I am quite anxious about the whole situation because unless something unexpected happens, besides wasm there is nothing that can come close to this and it's a pain. Btw, the good thing about js is that js code works literally everywhere. Not like here that even though clj and cljs look very much the same, it's literally impossible to use clojure code automatically in cljs (or maybe I am wrong, and you know a solution?)