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[OT] I will have to chose a pension provider for my company and for myself soon. Does anybody have any recommendations or methods and techniques to find a good/appropriate one?
xlevus: yeah. I’d be afraid of being one of those cases of beautiful when simple, horrible when complex. I can see an app turning into a mess of events that you have no idea where they are coming from.
I still haven't really written anything in clojure yet :/ Mostly just been reading docs, busy with other stuff, and changing my mind on what I want to write more often than a dice on a steep incline
what to work on. I have an idea for a SAAS product. I could probably finish it in 6 months if I stuck into it, took some time off, and did it in python, but I don't like Python any more. So I want do it in Clj, but I sort of need to get a little more comfortable with the language. So my current idea is a small game. Which I could then use to dogfood the SAAS.
@pupeno: fancy doing an experience report on how this went in a few months once you’ve got further into it?
My transitioning the company to Clojure seems to be a long endeavour, got one dev on my side and now he loves it, 3 more to go. Will get there in the end.
related: This recent episode by Anthony Marcar on Cognicast is pretty good, he talks about how he started a clojure team at walmart labs http://blog.cognitect.com/cognicast/087
hi @pupeno I'm having a chat with Skillsmatter tomorrow about running a panel to debate "State of Clojure" Is mass adopting happening
Am hoping to get a good panel, with relevant people, not just from the clojure community
@jonpither sounds good. I see resistance in bank I'm working for mainly due to the 'we can't get developers for that from our outsourcing partners’ argument.
@xlevus: that would cost more per ‘unit’ (unit is the new euphemism for ‘resource’ which is the old way of insulting people!)
So true. Clj accentuates the problem as better devs become better - so dealing with managers who see devs as commodities is harder. Harder because the CLJ devs become harder to yank out, and they are more expensive
@jonpither: these managers are measuring the wrong thing…measure value defined as features delivered (and their ROI) compared with cost of dev team…might get a completely different result!
it's so hard not to get taken for granted. Success becomes the norm, and people get used to it
…on the other hand as I want to set up a biz of my own sometime soon…I hope they don’t do this. Never hurts to have competitive advantage.
@jonpither: Here’s a question for the ‘State of Clojure’ panel…do we (as a Community) want mass adoption?
Python pretty much made it to mass adoption, and yet developers for it, competent or not, are still hard to find
The language isn’t horrific but the swarm of poor quality developers and their code has given it a bad rep in recent years. It used to be the ‘cool kid’ on the block
@agile_geek: you can't deny what your saying I think. Once the mass outsource companies pick up a lang, quality will drop
@xlevus: will it? I’ve seen procedural code jammed into Java methods in classes that have no relation to each other…why would we not see massive functions in one namespace?
but in any case, using clojure now is useful to me already, so I am pretty happy with that
I personally think the biggest barrier to entry is the steep learning curve, not just the language but the lack of a standard framework meaning you have to invest quite some time into researching and trying different libs.
And some of them, you look at, and go "This is like, 100 lines. This surely can't do what I want"
@agile_geek: i disagree about java - i think the language is pretty horrific - it makes it very hard to produce abstractions and makes you pointlessly type a lot
"idiomatic" is the key word I think,.... and I suspect Clojure programmers are keen on doing that... and not just hack away till something that kinda works
I think the closest thing I've seen to Java's namespaces of finger-fatigue in Clojure are the Taoensso libraries.
@mccraigmccraig true but my point is when it was written noone foresaw this. saw Yodit complaining on twitter about everything ending up being a 'Stuart Sierra Component' whether it needed life cycle or not. The Clojure equivalent of Spring for everything? I guess my point is everything gets abused at some point and the more Clojure moves to mass adoption the more this will happen.
Facebook down, I think they’re having trouble rendering React on the server, @pupeno give them a hand. 😛
@agile_geek: i don't think we have enough dimensions hers. there are two metrics for a given language - 1. how inevitable terrible code is and 2. how possible elegant code is where the worst case is [1,0] and the best [0,1] ... i would put java at [0.8, 0.4] and clojure at [0.5, 0.7]
i have high hopes that lux will be a [0.4, 0.9] but they will probably be dashed because everything is terrible
@quentin: not for long i think - iirc he has a plan to bootstrap it and provide minimal platform shims, though my memory may be deceiving me
@mccraigmccraig I agree. Although I think the reason we are less likely to see massive imperative style funcs in one namespace, etc will be more to do with the outsourcers not adopting it than the two factors u mention...but I may just be scarred forever from working in that world for too long 😉