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#ldnclj
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2015-09-24
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maleghast04:09:21

I feel your pain @gjnoonan - truly I feel it

pupeno07:09:36

Good morning.

gjnoonan08:09:56

Morning peeps

pupeno08:09:50

[OT] I will have to chose a pension provider for my company and for myself soon. Does anybody have any recommendations or methods and techniques to find a good/appropriate one?

xlevus08:09:20

Good morning

xlevus08:09:38

@pupeno: No. But I too would like to know.

xlevus08:09:44

I read all the Re-Frame docs last night. Holy poops. it seems so simple.

pupeno08:09:47

xlevus: yeah. I’d be afraid of being one of those cases of beautiful when simple, horrible when complex. I can see an app turning into a mess of events that you have no idea where they are coming from.

xlevus08:09:04

Yeah, I saw that yesterday. Nice work.

xlevus08:09:25

But, for what I plan on doing, it isn't necessary. Yay gamedev.

pupeno08:09:56

xlevus: where you at the ClojureScript workshop?

pupeno08:09:33

Ok. Someone else was talking about gamedev in clojurescript there.

xlevus09:09:15

I still haven't really written anything in clojure yet :/ Mostly just been reading docs, busy with other stuff, and changing my mind on what I want to write more often than a dice on a steep incline

xlevus09:09:50

It'll get to the bottom soon... I'm sure.

pupeno09:09:08

You think there’s a bottom?

xlevus09:09:03

One can hope.

pupeno09:09:20

What are you changing your mind about?

xlevus09:09:40

what to work on. I have an idea for a SAAS product. I could probably finish it in 6 months if I stuck into it, took some time off, and did it in python, but I don't like Python any more. So I want do it in Clj, but I sort of need to get a little more comfortable with the language. So my current idea is a small game. Which I could then use to dogfood the SAAS.

pupeno09:09:37

I know what you mean as I’m transitioning my company to Clojure.

agile_geek09:09:42

@pupeno: fancy doing an experience report on how this went in a few months once you’ve got further into it?

afhammad12:09:14

My transitioning the company to Clojure seems to be a long endeavour, got one dev on my side and now he loves it, 3 more to go. Will get there in the end.

pupeno12:09:16

Maybe it could be a panel of companies that transitioned or are transitioning.

agile_geek12:09:16

@pupeno: @afhammad - I like the panel idea…either a talk at SkillsMatter or possibly a panel discussion at ClojureX

pupeno12:09:20

This year ClojureX would be too soon for me, I think.

afhammad12:09:47

related: This recent episode by Anthony Marcar on Cognicast is pretty good, he talks about how he started a clojure team at walmart labs http://blog.cognitect.com/cognicast/087

agile_geek13:09:32

@pupeno: that’s what I was thinking..one for a SkillsMatter talk next year?

pupeno13:09:00

Yeah, that could work.

jonpither13:09:08

hi @pupeno I'm having a chat with Skillsmatter tomorrow about running a panel to debate "State of Clojure" Is mass adopting happening

jonpither13:09:25

Am hoping to get a good panel, with relevant people, not just from the clojure community

jonpither13:09:46

happy to sync up / discuss

agile_geek14:09:14

@jonpither sounds good. I see resistance in bank I'm working for mainly due to the 'we can't get developers for that from our outsourcing partners’ argument.

xlevus14:09:57

guess they just need better outsourcing partners

agile_geek14:09:13

@xlevus: that would cost more per ‘unit’ (unit is the new euphemism for ‘resource’ which is the old way of insulting people!)

agile_geek14:09:57

Developers are a fungible commodity to these organisations.

jonpither14:09:20

So true. Clj accentuates the problem as better devs become better - so dealing with managers who see devs as commodities is harder. Harder because the CLJ devs become harder to yank out, and they are more expensive

jonpither14:09:08

At least when you're wading in concrete, everyone is going at the same pace

agile_geek14:09:54

@jonpither: these managers are measuring the wrong thing…measure value defined as features delivered (and their ROI) compared with cost of dev team…might get a completely different result!

jonpither14:09:56

it's so hard not to get taken for granted. Success becomes the norm, and people get used to it

agile_geek14:09:05

…on the other hand as I want to set up a biz of my own sometime soon…I hope they don’t do this. Never hurts to have competitive advantage.

agile_geek14:09:08

@jonpither: Here’s a question for the ‘State of Clojure’ panel…do we (as a Community) want mass adoption?

jonpither14:09:29

It'll be a fab panel

xlevus14:09:41

What would be the downsides to Mass Adoption?

xlevus14:09:15

Python pretty much made it to mass adoption, and yet developers for it, competent or not, are still hard to find

agile_geek14:09:05

@xlevus: reputational damage to the language if quality of development drops?

agile_geek14:09:18

Playing Devil’s advocate here

xlevus14:09:34

Yeah, perhaps

agile_geek14:09:01

Java has suffered from this a lot

agile_geek14:09:01

The language isn’t horrific but the swarm of poor quality developers and their code has given it a bad rep in recent years. It used to be the ‘cool kid’ on the block

quentin14:09:11

yeah java was the cool kid simple_smile fun times

jonpither14:09:15

@agile_geek: you can't deny what your saying I think. Once the mass outsource companies pick up a lang, quality will drop

jonpither14:09:53

enjoying the chat. but I have to hit the underground

agile_geek14:09:00

@jonpither: seeing this already in Scala!

jonpither14:09:16

lets chat about the panel again on here tomorrow

agile_geek14:09:25

Java without semicolons

xlevus14:09:50

but, even if quality drops, the language still seems to lead to much simpler code.

xlevus14:09:13

I guess you can't bill by SLOC when you require half as many lines

agile_geek14:09:16

@xlevus: will it? I’ve seen procedural code jammed into Java methods in classes that have no relation to each other…why would we not see massive functions in one namespace?

xlevus14:09:31

Good point.

agile_geek14:09:32

@xlevus: I like your optimism but I think mass adoption may not be all good.

xlevus14:09:24

ultimately, whatever happens happens, and we just have to deal with it

quentin14:09:29

well, it’s really possible to write horrible clojure code

quentin14:09:45

i don’t think we want mass adoption, and I doubt it will happen anyway ^^

quentin14:09:55

but I would hope for larger adoption to a degree

agile_geek15:09:10

@quentin: I’m with u on all of those comments 😄

quentin15:09:22

at least large enough to have more work opportunities with clojure

quentin15:09:03

but in any case, using clojure now is useful to me already, so I am pretty happy with that simple_smile

afhammad15:09:05

I personally think the biggest barrier to entry is the steep learning curve, not just the language but the lack of a standard framework meaning you have to invest quite some time into researching and trying different libs.

quentin15:09:29

you can have some decision paralysis when choosing your tooling

afhammad15:09:25

plus the libs/tools are evolving quite rapidly

xlevus15:09:53

And some of them, you look at, and go "This is like, 100 lines. This surely can't do what I want"

mccraigmccraig15:09:19

@agile_geek: i disagree about java - i think the language is pretty horrific - it makes it very hard to produce abstractions and makes you pointlessly type a lot

xlevus15:09:12

com.company.department.unit.user.functionality

mccraigmccraig15:09:58

com.company.department.unit.user.functionality.FactoryBuilderInterfaceDecoratorFactoryFactory

thomas16:09:03

and don't forget you can write horrible code in any language.

thomas16:09:46

"idiomatic" is the key word I think,.... and I suspect Clojure programmers are keen on doing that... and not just hack away till something that kinda works

xlevus16:09:36

I think the closest thing I've seen to Java's namespaces of finger-fatigue in Clojure are the Taoensso libraries.

xlevus16:09:29

and they really irk me, because I can't spell it for the life of me.

mccraigmccraig16:09:19

@xlevus: i have that problem too simple_smile

xlevus16:09:39

Maybe I should open a ticket. See how many +1's it gets

rickmoynihan16:09:54

@xlevus: I have the same thought everytime I require one of those!

agile_geek16:09:53

@mccraigmccraig true but my point is when it was written noone foresaw this. saw Yodit complaining on twitter about everything ending up being a 'Stuart Sierra Component' whether it needed life cycle or not. The Clojure equivalent of Spring for everything? I guess my point is everything gets abused at some point and the more Clojure moves to mass adoption the more this will happen.

afhammad16:09:14

Facebook down, I think they’re having trouble rendering React on the server, @pupeno give them a hand. 😛

mccraigmccraig16:09:58

@agile_geek: i don't think we have enough dimensions hers. there are two metrics for a given language - 1. how inevitable terrible code is and 2. how possible elegant code is where the worst case is [1,0] and the best [0,1] ... i would put java at [0.8, 0.4] and clojure at [0.5, 0.7]

mccraigmccraig16:09:04

i have high hopes that lux will be a [0.4, 0.9] but they will probably be dashed because everything is terrible

quentin16:09:53

the worst case in clojure could easily get a lower value I think

quentin16:09:46

oh lux is on jvm as well

mccraigmccraig16:09:13

@quentin: not for long i think - iirc he has a plan to bootstrap it and provide minimal platform shims, though my memory may be deceiving me

agile_geek17:09:10

@mccraigmccraig I agree. Although I think the reason we are less likely to see massive imperative style funcs in one namespace, etc will be more to do with the outsourcers not adopting it than the two factors u mention...but I may just be scarred forever from working in that world for too long 😉

mccraigmccraig17:09:41

@agile_geek: there will always be massive imperative style funcs ... i don't care that the outsourcers can fuck things up, as long as one is not forced to do so, and it's easy to do things elegantly