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#ldnclj
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2015-07-09
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otfrom06:07:48

happy tube strike everyone!

agile_geek07:07:00

Cycled in - good, Forgot pass to get into building - bad! Doh!

thomas07:07:18

Good luck today ldn-ers....

agile_geek07:07:16

@otfrom: WFH or did you brave the commute?

jamiei07:07:59

Morning all

otfrom07:07:06

morning jamiei

jamiei07:07:13

Made it in simple_smile

otfrom07:07:23

cycle? bus?

otfrom07:07:35

shank's pony?

jamiei07:07:40

Screw the strike, I walked 5 miles simple_smile

jamiei07:07:20

sorry, wasn't intending that to sound pointed.

jamiei07:07:29

Although, I do like the idea of a horse...

agile_geek07:07:55

thinks it’s more likely to become about lifestyle choices re: eco-modes of transport

otfrom07:07:22

horses are a terrible eco choice. Not as bad as a dog as a pet, but...

jamiei07:07:03

I guess if you wanted to go the "hummer" equivalent, you could even ride an elephant to work

thomas08:07:40

camels anyone?

thomas08:07:18

no need to fill up every day

jamiei08:07:53

Do you think you could use the bus lanes on a camel?

agile_geek08:07:22

otfrom: cows are a worse eco choice..you can’t even ride them! Donkey?

agile_geek08:07:42

I’ll stick with bicycle…now someone’s going to tell me the alloy in my new bike cost the planet as much as the CO2 from 8 buses!

korny08:07:41

damn, need a smaller gif simple_smile

thomas08:07:52

@jamiei: sure, no problem.

jamiei08:07:28

@agile_geek: I've never bought a bike because I'm never confident enough in riding it without being hit by a careless driver. Do you encounter problems?

korny08:07:44

In my route I’m more afraid of other cyclists and oblivious pedestrians than cars

korny08:07:47

Cars in central London are generally slow and dodgeable - as long as you aren’t running red lights (like about 10% of the cyclists I see)

agile_geek08:07:50

@jamiei: I’m new to cycling in London so I’ll let you know but regularly cycled in Newcastle (obviously not as busy) and I’ve had occasional run in but only been knocked off once in 8 years of regular cycling. Agree with @korny about pedestrians

agile_geek08:07:17

red light jumpers just have a death wish!

jamiei08:07:00

Oops, I'm probably guilty of being an oblivious pedestrian from time to time

agile_geek08:07:06

@thomas: tried it with our cows when I was in my teens. They just stood there eating!

thomas08:07:30

@agile_geek: you obvs haven't tried hard enough

mccraigmccraig08:07:41

@agile_geek: red-light jumpers don't always have a death wish : i recall (from 10 years ago when i lived in london) there were plenty of junctions in the city of london where traffic stops entirely for pedestrian crossing, and it's perfectly safe to cross when there is a red light and there are no pedestrians

agile_geek08:07:44

@mccraigmccraig: I personally don’t risk it but take your point.. and sometimes getting away in front of traffic is safer.

korny08:07:37

The trouble is (in my humble opinion of course!) that while it’s “safe” - in many cases it still adds to the resentment against riders.

mccraigmccraig08:07:47

i always thought that as long as you can cycle at ~20mph, and remember to look behind you every few seconds, then cycling in london traffic is quite safe, since it's slow moving and you can take a car space

korny08:07:35

… so I stop at pedestrian crossings, and red lights, and (gasp) sit my bike on the big painted bicycle area on the road. The slow lights can be frustrating, and I do cheat occasionally if I’m really in a rush, but usually I can afford to waste 2 or 3 minutes of my trip in this way. It gives me a chance to stretch and enjoy the view.

mccraigmccraig09:07:58

@korny: i never really cared about the resentment of irrational idiots. they don't resent you for any rational reason, so refraining from doing the thing they say they resent you for isn't going to stop them resenting you, because they are irrational and will find something else to resent you for

korny09:07:33

I resent you for that simple_smile

korny09:07:46

(kidding, of course!)

mccraigmccraig09:07:10

now i'm in a bind @korny , since i don't consider you an irrational idiot simple_smile

thomas09:07:44

just irrational? or just an idiot? 😉

korny09:07:06

(and (or :irrational :idiot) (not (and :irrational :idiot)))

thomas09:07:24

@korny: 😉 very good

korny09:07:54

really I should express it as a core.logic check but I’m meant to be working simple_smile

otfrom12:07:17

I'm not sure this tea is giving me the post lunch head kick I need

jamiei13:07:55

Switch it out for coffee?

otfrom13:07:47

that might be the next resort

otfrom13:07:58

after that I think I'll have to go for Dr Whisky

otfrom13:07:06

that will wake me up, right?

thomas13:07:12

@otfrom: why don't you have two or three.... that will work even better 😉

mccraigmccraig13:07:39

otfrom: whisky is dead to me. bring me calvados

otfrom13:07:37

thomas: not a bad idea

thomas13:07:52

more equals better. Right?

otfrom13:07:53

mccraigmccraig: I have Lagavulin. You're argument is irrelevant

mccraigmccraig13:07:40

otfrom: lagavulin are less guilty of the wanky packaging (which renders me unable to bring myself to buy whisky) than many

xlevus14:07:19

In the words of Bobby Bare "Pour me another Tequila Sheila."

agile_geek14:07:19

@otfrom: Whisky would just put me to sleep. You need to go on a brisk bike ride young man, always wakes me up.

pupeno15:07:59

@agile_geek: I remember you mentioning this community (clojurians) having a lot of activity but since I joined it hasn’t been very busy. Did it die out after an initial flurry of activity?

agile_geek15:07:14

@pupeno: over promise and under deliver that’s the story of my life! quite a lot of activity in clojure and clojurescript channels no?

pupeno15:07:52

Maybe they are more active at different timezones.

pupeno15:07:16

clojurescript seems to be more active than clojure.

agile_geek16:07:53

I think that sums up Clojurescript atm. It seems to be getting a lot of interest. I am still trying to figure out why as I can’t see it being that attractive for existing JS devs but may just be the Clojurians who already used Clojure in the backend getting excited about full stack and homogeneous development.

agile_geek16:07:00

I am sure the more knowledgeable ldnclj members who actually use this stuff in their day job will enlighten this poor Java developer 😉

pupeno16:07:45

Well… ClojureScript was kind-of my gateway drug even though I haven’t touched it yet.

otfrom16:07:26

pupeno: I've been having fun with http://thi.ng and reagent lately

otfrom16:07:41

had some trouble doing svg stuff w/Om. Not got to the bottom of that yet

pupeno16:07:03

I do want to use either om or reagent and I’m leaning towards reagent.

otfrom16:07:15

Om is pickier, but simpler I think. When I get something in Om I think I understand it. W/reagent I feel like I'm cargo-culting.

korny16:07:49

I would love to use clojurescript if I had (a) a top-rate team who were keen and willing to learn it, (b) a client who was happy to take risks and (c) was happy to hire smart devs to own it after we were done. And (d) a client with a pressing need for a complex UI, or in other ways was able to justify the costs of (+ a b c d). 😕

korny16:07:13

It still might happen - I was saying similar things about clojure 4 years ago. But JavaScript isn’t that bad, basically, so there’s not such a compelling reason to switch.

otfrom16:07:51

korny: I'm not sure I'd take on even a moderately complicated UI with javascript

korny16:07:15

I’m planning to spend some time learning React properly, as I’m far more likely to get a JS project than a cljs one, and I want ammunition to at least use something better than all the heavyweight MVC frameworks out there

otfrom16:07:43

not a bad plan

otfrom16:07:41

glad I'm building for myself mostly. I often make the same decision when we do the odd bit of consultancy. But I feel like a bit of an arrogant jerk when I decide that a client isn't up for doing clj/cljs

pupeno16:07:39

I think I just finished prototyping my first ever piece of useful Clojure code. Woohoo! simple_smile

pupeno16:07:20

otfrom: I heard exactly the reverse regarding Om and Reagent.

agile_geek18:07:33

korny: clients I’ve talked to over last 2 years wouldn’t even consider Clojure (or even Scala) let alone cljs! Mind same clients think Scrum is cutting edge & Kanban is voodoo..(rooted in manufacturing in 1958 for goodness sake! It’s older than ‘waterfall’!!)

otfrom18:07:42

Om punishes you for not knowing what you are doing. That feels diferent than magic

agile_geek18:07:57

otfrom: problem is I never know what I’m doing…may explain my metaphorical bruises!

otfrom18:07:56

there is always that problem 😉

agile_geek18:07:45

something to be said for ‘fail fast’ though. Kind of why I slightly bias myself to the microservices early side of the ‘microservices vs monolith to start’ argument.

agile_geek18:07:30

it drives out interfaces early but if you mess them up and scale to fast (too many dependent consumers) you pay the price.

agile_geek18:07:02

My favourite architectural trend is log driven distributed systems (i.e. Kafaka) cos it just feels like my message/event driven architectures from 10-15 yrs ago but done right. Always felt SOA via service calls was too tightly coupled for my liking… and gave you potential orchestration issues. Persistent ordered messages, I like the sound of that.

agile_geek18:07:09

I feel I should stop contributing here as I really don’t have much Clojure/Clojurescript stuff to discuss! 😈

otfrom18:07:35

the problem with SOA was the vendors wanted too much intelligence in the infrastructure

otfrom18:07:39

kafka is just a dumb log

otfrom18:07:06

and it all gets down to a lovely lambda architecture

agile_geek18:07:56

Yeah I like Kappa too. It addresses a couple of concerns I had with Lambda.

mccraigmccraig19:07:28

otfrom pupeno : i've done a load of om, and not very much reagent, but reagent seems very much the simpler based on my limited experience

otfrom19:07:18

mccraigmccraig: I find it easier, but not simpler, thus the magic bits. I can see all the moving parts in Om

mccraigmccraig20:07:23

and om sometimes punishes you long after you know what you are doing quite well, e.g. trying to update props from properties made from patched together bits of the cursor tree

mccraigmccraig20:07:03

hmm. well, i'm about to start a new project in reagent, so i guess i'll find out

mccraigmccraig20:07:15

otfrom: which moving parts can't you see in reagent ? or do you just mean that all your data is in the cursor, so trivially findable ?

agile_geek20:07:31

mccraigmccraig: keep us posted on how you find it. Without experiencing either Om or Reagent other than tutorials I’d be interested in ‘experience reports'

mccraigmccraig20:07:09

@agile_geek: i promise to whinge loudest here 😉

otfrom20:07:35

mccraigmccraig: maybe I've not done enough reagent yet. Just felt like the only way to make the component was to put it in [] and I didn't see how to control it

mccraigmccraig20:07:35

otfrom: me either really, but i will be finding out