Clojurians Log v2

there are many projects that do this on github: https://github.com/GodsScion/Auto_job_applier_linkedIn

https://github.com/feder-cr/linkedIn_auto_jobs_applier_with_AI

https://github.com/nicolomantini/LinkedIn-Easy-Apply-Bot

the value of signal/noise in the job application process is asymptotically approaching 0

Are you getting properly formatted PDFs or stupid prose texts / ones with too little or too much text? Properly formatted 1-2 page PDF CVs are tough to fake I think. Also the links above are "just" Linkedin bots. There are also too many AI generated offerings out there, or at least where it's clear AI helped to phrase it. No way to deny it's happening (on both sides). If it's just linkedin, just post a link and disable the direct apply.

There's an irony in a company that makes an AI-related product, getting application-bombed by AI-generated content...

Considering that we used to get 100s of resumes for any JS job we offered -- before AI could do this -- I can only imagine how bad it is getting for companies trying to hire now, especially given how many more developers are out of work and desperate for a job -- any job -- at this point (a developer friend of mine is even applying to delivery companies as a seasonal driver, just to get some cash in -- and he isn't an outlier). It's kind of the perfect storm of awfulness right now 😞

I can't wait for AI solutions in this space to get better, so the virtual assistant would be on constant lookout for a better job for me, while I would be focusing on "real problems," like keeping the job I already have. I might even build another assistant to do the job for me and let them compete, between getting the best job and keeping the best job.

in the complete opposite direction, I’ve had “AI” recruiters reach out to me for positions (“AI” in quotes because they’re really crap and cant do a proper conversation over email)

Looks like we need AI to help us filter out AI-generated CVs, and also AI to get our CVs through the AI filters.

@d.marrs my mother used to say that this is create a problem to sell a solution and it surely does sound like that 🙂

Email will shortly be solely the domain of AI bots chatting with each other. This is what "progress" looks like, friends! 🙄

Though better that than AI powered killer drones... oops, we've had those for decades, depending on your definition of "AI" and "drone".

"Find a job faster!"

A one dollar paywall might do the trick

Can we just ignore the perfect ones? 🤔

I don’t think “proof of work” will do anything in this context. I’d wager that the compute power required to generate a résumé using a LLM is already larger than the computational power required for a basic NP-hard problem anyway, so compute costs don’t seem to be a limiting factor on this tactic. As for an actual dollar cost, I find the idea of paying an employer for the privilege of applying to a job, and paying to clean up spammers’ messes, unconscionable. Genuine applicants are the real victims of spammers and should not be expected to bear these costs. I don’t have to pay to send emails just because spammers exist.

It's a reasonable solution in a post-AI world. That money could go to charity as well. There are not that many Clojure jobs (or jobs where one is a stellar fit) such that paying a sub-dollar fee would become a serious nuisance. You're also paying for the fake competitors count to be decimated.

sounds almost like a protection racket - “nice job application you have there, would be a shame if a bunch of fakes were created to compete with it 🤌”

It's a reasonable solution in a post-AI worldIt's very similar to Proof of stake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_stake

And if you're that charity that receives the money then you get this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

sub-dollar fees may seem like a minor nuisance for someone making a programmer’s salary, but could be a serious burden for someone unemployed or making minimum wage. any solution offered for this problem will likely be imposed across the wage scale and must be considered accordingly.

Imagine applying to 100 employers where each expects $10, because $1 is too cheap....

Well, on the other side of the equation you have 1000 fake anons competing for a USD1XXk job for a cost of $0. The asymmetry is extreme - you risk nothing (an AI application), you may take home that sweet WFH job to be offshored to a ghost programmer. (Bad actors do think like that and sometimes their traces can be seen in this Slack)

What is the problem to be solved? The amount of the applications or the quality? From what I understand it's that even a person with no AI generator or no ghost programmer could decide to have two jobs. So I don't think that paying money filters it out. Maybe it even increases the divide between that ghost programmer who can't pay and the one who manages and can pay. The cheating one is actually way more interested to get this fake twitter checkmark by paying one dollar. This is exactly what we see in twitter.

> What is the problem to be solved? The amount of the applications or the quality? The amount and rate of applications. Over the last 18 months, opening a job post will get you hundreds of applications instantly - I'm talking < 1h. Only some of them will be human. Solving that problem alone is worth it - it makes the competition fair (by removing bots and unqualified applicants) and the job easier for HR.

Leaving this theoretical discussion behind, the name of the game in 2023-24 job hunting is being quick (0-4h range), human and relevant. Hope it helps.

I think that the only way to filter is to propose a window with a basic task that can't be solved by AIs but is easy enough to be used to filter. This means "work from the organization". And this means that there is this same window as you proposed. It's compatible. But even then -- why would a company have an interview and wait. What's the point then... Why not reject immediately...

Ah. This is why we have professional recruiters. Known and trusted by hiring staff. Who have an incentive to present only the best. So they filter them. Too easy? Instead, we tech geniuses decided we could handle it ourselves and save a few nickles with onerous processes that abuse applicants. And proudly announce, "No recruiters." We have seen the enemy, and they are us?

I agree with vemv, though I'm unsure whether that'd be legal in most countries. Essentially, the only way to stop spam is requiring some "proof of work". In technical terms, online applications need to somehow generate problems where verifying a solution is cheap but producing a solution is expensive (e.g. find inverse of x mod a large prime p). Some email servers already employ this as an anti-spam measure. As long as it's cheap to spam, spammers will exist

I've seen people use AI to help answer questions while interviewing with me. I've liked what Oxide has been doing to provide a 'work example': https://oxide.computer/careers

ive settled on: "have a conversation over video chat" though i guess there's a limit on how long that will work too

I thought that Resume+Reenter-same-data-into-fields+Cover-letter-with-same-stuff already was peak employment experience... a paywall... Today I've read an interesting idea: "People may not be able to afford to work"

online applications need to somehow generate problems where verifying a solution is cheap but producing a solution is expensiveImagine trying to apply to a developer job for a year and solving all kinds of 8-12hour unpaid exercises just to be dismissed. Sounds like a spam from the employer's side actually. Oh yes, and also could you please fill in this candidate experience survey while you're at it?

What I'd actually prefer is that: 1. we give you the exercise 2. if you pass you're hired right on the spot without any interviews i.e. obligation to immediately hire when the bar is passed (yes, the bar could be higher but then any "I don't knows" would mean "yes") That would mean that the candidate would not need to go through multiple empty hoops. And if they aren't cofident then they would know the criteria and wouldn't even try to apply.

That would certainly mean that the organization would limit themselves in understanding and choosing between best candidates. But they repost the job ads anyway. Also probation period exists for a reason.