Clojurians Log v2

> market for software developers is essentially dead the situation in the near term is dire but in the long term it's very likely that moneyed folks will need a place to put their cash, ventures will get funded, and developers will become a scarce resource again

but as to the direct question I think I'd be a good goatherd

> but as to the direct question I think I'd be a good goatherd what do you mean?

> long term it's very likely that moneyed folks will need a place to put their cash, ventures will get funded, and developers will become a scarce resource again but how long? in five to ten years a lot can change, and we are not getting younger

I suppose Dave means this, quite literally. If there are no programming jobs at all.

ah I’ve got it now, sorry 😅

something i've noticed in my local region (cincinnati, ohio, usa): there are non-stop available jobs, but the companies don't pay great and are relatively boring. so if i were to lose my very nice clojure job, i could take a 30-60% pay cut and work at one of the local banks doing java 1.6 or at the regional healthcare middleman doing angular 1 javascript. that's pretty rough, but it's not nothing and i certainly can't support my family going back to bartending

> but how long? in five to ten years a lot can change, and we are not getting younger i doubt it will take 10 years 🙂

I took a significant pay cut to work at a nonprofit before the current downturn, but now I am protected (after nearly two years of bargaining) by a union contract. I feel grateful for the stability this offers me in the current job market, and it shows that sometimes the best protections from the whims of the market are not specific to our skills as software engineers but instead can be won by banding together with our colleagues who do very different work from us but still deserve stability and a fair wage.

If you have any free time, you can always be spending it on increasing your chances of getting money out of programming, one way or another. The job channels here is a tiny sliver of the totality of what's available. So are designated job boards and websites. A lot of options are where you are probably not looking at all - Toptal (just checked - 109 jobs right now, although not Clojure-related), Upwork, Fiverr, etc. A lot of stuff is only on the websites of particular companies. And it has always been my perception that a lot of great stuff can be found if the whole situation is approached from the "this is the thing I want to work on, this is the place I want to work at" perspective. I.e. studying some particular niche, getting to know people in that niche, figuring out how to start working there.

Kinda risking stating the obvious here, but another way to increase the probability of having something to do and being paid for it when there are not enough programming jobs around is to shift your overall domain from programming to something related. How far and in which direction - depends on your preferences/skills/situation/luck. E.g. it's possible to become a project manager. Or a customer relations manager. Or a DBA. Or a data analyst. And so on and so forth. You don't always have to have "software engineer" or "software" or "engineer" in your title.

Having a plan B is always good, regardless of current context being shiny or crappy. Then, good luck to everyone defining the right personalised plan B

I am also lucky enough to be the first hire for my role at my current org; in such cases you may have the opportunity to use the language of your choice (I get to use Clojure every day!) because no one else is dictating the technology you need to use as long as the job is getting done.

@nbtheduke re: boring low paying jobs, what channel are you looking at to find these?

> i doubt it will take 10 years I agree. I think mass layoffs (or hiring freezes) go on also because of inertia (in the same manner as many companies hired too much when it wasn't strictly necessary, a couple of years ago) but I don't see this going on forever. And even in the shiniest dream of people in love in AI, I guess you'll be better off if you're capable to read some code at least 😄

@mail191 i look at indeed and dice and stack overflow jobs and attend meet ups locally and cold email companies and reach out to friends and post in my local tech slack and discord servers. when i don't have a job, "finding a job" becomes my entire job and i put in 8-10 hours a day until i find one.

https://www.idealist.org/en/jobs Idealist is a good place to look for nonprofit jobs, at least in the USA.

shift your overall domain from programming to something related. How far and in which direction - depends on your preferences/skills/situation/luck.> E.g. it's possible to become a project manager. Or a customer relations manager. Or a DBA. Or a data analyst. In general yes, but this has to be weighted carefully, as many other roles around sw development are in deepest sh... 😢 um, have harder prospects ATM than plain devs, while some specialisation can protect better (eg extra infra/cloud chops). On the other hand if somebody dreams of becoming something else (eg PM, QA, whatever) the disruptive period can be somewhat an occasion to go all in once and for all 🙂

Despite all the press hype about Big Tech laying off "hundreds" (or occasionally thousands) of people, the industry a whole is pretty healthy and there are a lot of programming jobs out there. Software is increasingly an integral part of almost every company's business these days. A lot of non-tech companies are hiring programmers -- and they've always struggled to find good people because of the lure of Big Tech. I think Clojure has always had more people wanting to work in Clojure than there are jobs so that is certainly a valid concern -- but it's the other way round in many other tech stacks. I've been a developer for over 40 years so I've seen a lot of ebb and flow in the industry, but always expansion overall, and I've changed my tech stack a dozen times over those four decades in order to stay employed.

> Kinda risking stating the obvious here, but another way to increase the probability of having something to do and being paid for it when there are not enough programming jobs around is to shift your overall domain from programming to something related. > that’s 100% although i am a bit tired of the whole thing, (i’ve been coding for 12 years now). I think the healthy approach would be to figure out what I would really want to try, and in case when i won’t have a job anymore just go for it. So basically just have a plan to try something else in case of emergency.

> Toptal (just checked - 109 jobs right now, although not Clojure-related), Upwork, Fiverr, etc. having short lived contracts has its appeal, basically forget the whole thing after you have done it, relax a bit and find something else.

I've taken career breaks when the job market was not very active. e.g dot-com bubble burst, global financial crisis, etc. Usually doing something quiet different, e.g cycle courier. Or taking some time to study. Doing something else is a good way to recapture lost motivation or finding motivation for something else. Finding startups that need engineering experience is also a good option, especially if you are interested in the business or goals they are trying to achieve

> good luck to everyone defining the right personalised plan B if i’ve had a good plan b i wouldn’t need to ask hah

If you're in Europe (or UK) then the company I work for will be hiring Clojure engineers in the next few months

http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/ In the category of “completely different plan B” stories, I’ve always appreciated this thoughtful account of leaving the tech sector to do completely different work.

A friend of mine quit tech and became a teacher at a local tech college and now spends a lot of their time working with non-profits and collectives, in the heritage seed and agriculture area... And he's happier than he ever was in tech... If I got laid off at this point, I'd continue to do open source work, but the level of sponsorship wouldn't come close to paying the mortgage so I'd probably have to sell my house and move somewhere cheaper... but I'd essentially retire at that point I think. Several people have suggested teaching tech but I don't really have the patience for it in a formal setting. Software development has been the only job I've ever had (aside from being an electrician's mate for a summer before I went to college).

i would definitely try to shoot for starting a business or a community, even if nothing works out, at least i will know that i tried to run things on my own for some time

If you're currently in a full time position (and have 12 years experience, which is definitely great), it's not a bad plan to still give priority to coding, but I ignore other factors (do you wish to do something else? Current position might not be so stable, or you're fed up or...). I don't intend to downplay the worry for the general situation (I definitely worry as well and probably overstress myself overthinking worst case scenarios, I should chill more with a full time job + months of notice) > if i’ve had a good plan b i wouldn’t need to ask hah sometimes people hide in plain sight speaking of themselves using the third person 😅 at least is obvious that there are many with the same concerns

> Despite all the press hype about Big Tech laying off "hundreds" (or occasionally thousands) of people, the industry a whole is pretty healthy and there are a lot of programming jobs out there. I'm quite panicking to be honest. I have never done anything else, I don't know if I can quickly learn anything different, building apps is all I have. I admit, I'm not an outstanding programmer, but I have never had it as difficult as right now. The startup I was in decided to decommission the project I was on, so they had to let me go. I've been searching for a job since January. The problem is not that I'm failing at interviews, I don't get them. I've been sending out applications by the dozens every day, but I've only had two companies where I've gotten to the technical rounds. For every application there are at least 150-300 applicants.

150-300 is according to LinkedIn. Of course, I don't know the actual numbers.

The job "platforms" are all a numbers game -- most of the blog posts etc I see out there recommend not applying through the platforms, but applying directly through the company's own site where possible and tailoring your application more for specific jobs. Fewer, better applications, to jobs you would actually want to do, at companies you would actually want to work at. If you're sending "dozens" of applications every day, you're just playing the numbers game too -- and employers know that: people who apply via LinkedIn or Dice or Indeed or... are just shotgunning applications at every company that has a vaguely matching job.

I tried different strategies. I applied through LI and directly, as well as through referrals. The pattern seems to confirm my findings - there appear to be too many applicants for a single job posting.

But isn't it fun to find out which "thank you" messages the companies use in their application confirmation dialogs and emails? Come on, think about the positives. I guess currently that's my new hobby. It's kind of a goal on its own, and if they don't even do the first interview it's fine -- you already got your reward! Also try this: https://reddit.com/r/recruitinghell

When we've posted Clojure jobs, we've had a reasonable number of generally high-quality candidates. When we've posted JS jobs, we've had 150 or so applicants of which maybe a dozen were even vaguely worth interviewing and I think we ended up with just two or three potential candidates. I would imagine Java jobs have a similar ratio. Kotlin and Scala might be a bit better. Haskell, F#, Ocaml are probably on a par with Clojure.

I interviewed for a Java job I was said that I was the best candidate but I was rejected because they said "you'll leave for a Clojure company". So it isn't enough to be the best, you need something stronger... like... dark magic. In the end of the day it's a circus (in a negative and bad way). And I believe that any Clojure developer in this forum is better than most of the people who apply to the JS jobs that were mentioned by seancorfield.

And they're better because they didn't choose the easiest path. So use this as your advantage.

Apart from changing the field (other industry, other tech stack), one might also consider changing the region. I heard the US job market is especially bad currently - generally hire&fire. Very nice during the hiring spree because salaries are super high. If you consider moving to Europe, salaries might be a bit lower in absolute numbers while quality of life is generally very good. Not possible for everybody though given personal circumstances, but worth a shot 🙂 Small-mid-sized companies pay - comparably for the region - still very well.

It's still bad in EU too. I'm here and let's say.... I didn't have a good year.

True, I'm feeling a difference, too, however, still much better ratio than my US friends

For once it pays off that my country is a laggard 😅

Just in case, to whomever might need to hear it. Remote jobs exist. All over the world, in a variety of remuneration ranges. It's not harder to get one as compared to a regular office-based job. It's not harder to maintain it. In properly organized teams, I have seen no downsides whatsoever. So if you're avoiding remote jobs because they're "worse" or "scary" or "hard" - stop, don't do that. It's counterproductive.

(I've worked almost 100% remote since 2007 at this point)

I realized I had saved up enough for a frugal Mr. Money Mustache style "retirement". So, I now code in Clojure for the joy of it in my PJs. I have a handful of GitHub sponsors, which helps me stay caffeinated and contributes to the occasional tech upgrade.

@seancorfield I think a plan B for you might be offering expertise/guidance to folks on how to conduct good job interviews. I don't think many people do it well and I get the impression that you are very good at it.

Advice to move to another continent is out of touch...

The original advice is to consider changing the region, which in the case of the US might be just moving to a different state. But even with the given example of moving from the US to Europe, it's not out of touch for some people. That post mentions as much. An advice doesn't have to be generic to be useful.

That was the wrong thing to say, just my bitterness showing! Just shows how extreme the problem has become when the recommendations become so dramatic

> offering expertise/guidance to folks on how to conduct good job interviews Oh, I wish I could get more managers in industry to listen to my rants about our terrible interview culture 😞

Re: moving to another continent -- that's how I came to live in California, for a job, after growing up and working in England for the first 37 years...

If you're sending "dozens" of applications every day, you're just playing the numbers game too -- and employers know thatI very doubt. They're more likely to not even see the vast majority of CVs they receive, as many people working on those department candidly admit. Speaking for myself, even collecting regularly feedback on my CV from different people, it's stunning how little most companies bother to pay attention to it, even if you slim it down to the bare minimum they usually barely read bits of the most recent position only and this is a common experience (definitely it doesn't happen only to me). A safer way to have a profile/CV prioritised and properly viewed (but still no interview guarantee) is via networking, but I doubt that people have regularly contacts in every company they want to apply to, is more likely the exception. In general recruiting is a mixture of a jungle and a lottery, and in down periods is just more difficult, period. I don't have much to offer except encouragement (or, in my own bubble, inform folks of open positions, when I sense a potential match) but I'd be careful telling people they are shipping too many or too little CVs, they are very likely to be grown up professional that already nailed several interviews in the past and if many, many of them now say is harder, well, I suspect that it probably is.

I meant HR knows where the applications come in -- LinkedIn etc will be a giant flood, but direct applications via the company site might be a relative trickle. If you can reach out directly a hiring manager and bypass the initial contact via HR, even better.

On relocating - I'll skip the hard, context-dependant constraint of personal circumstances (financial situation? Do folks need to take after somebody else? Any visa constraints? Are folks ready to live somewhere else speaking another language? Etc). Let's pretend there are no constraint (or minor ones) there are various ways to relocate, e.g. planning vs improvising. Improvising is not for everyone and last time there was a down period (2008 financial crash) that was a major reason which forced me to put my plans of relocation on hold for a few more years.

A much bigger issue on relocating to a different country is typically the work visa issue -- which can be painful: time-consuming and expensive, even if the employer if handling it for you. I wouldn't wish my INS experience on my worst enemy, to be honest: five years and thousands of dollars and countless visits to the immigration office (lining up outside at 7 am every week to get admitted in time to see my case worker).

> I meant HR knows where the applications come in -- LinkedIn etc will be a giant flood, but direct applications via the company site might be a relative trickle I agree on better odds of direct application (over Linkedin/other platform)

I started that process having no idea it would be so awful... and only because I was lulled into a sense of false security by how easy the E-2 visa had been for my (UK) employer to obtain for me to start work here...

I have been looking for a job for almost 3 months and I agree with the overall feeling here... have never seen such a difficult market. But one thing to remember is that population statistics are one thing and individual experiences is another -- even in a bad market some people get jobs -- and because my attention and energy is finite, I try to be very deliberate about what I apply to. > I think about starting something awesome, but i am not sure what that would be, yet. I think that's a good idea too. If there is something you always wanted to do, but the opportunity cost of leaving your well-paying dev job was too high, this might be the time to try it (if you can afford it, of course, which I realize not everyone can).

> I think, is that in big tech companies today, there's a lack of architects, principal engineers, and tech leads - the ones calling the shots, who have ever taken the time to try Lisp Even a technical leader you have to justify your decisions economically (to execs, to your peers, to yourself...) and introducing a new language at a big tech company is a very expensive proposition. Could it pay off in the long run to introduce Clojure? Probably. But you have a 100 other more pressing problems to solve in the short and medium term. Also, you no longer have the personal incentive to introduce the language, because you barely get to write code anymore 😁

I think my last experiences with Clojure were different than other people here, because yes, I saw the "reinvent the wheel" (or "reimagining bicycle design" as others said) more than once... to the point my current job is Ruby, and I can honestly say it's been better than my last Clojure experiences (of course, a little "boring" in the sense of "it's always Rails", there's no real innovation). I basically saw the reinvention of ORMs in Clojure, of React, and some other weird situations... ... this all to say, I don't think the language is a thing that inherently makes for better designs; Clojure being quite a niche language even plays against it in the sense that if a company is trying Clojure, and people start to make "mini-frameworks", my experience has been that the company gives up on the language.

That being said, I spent the last 3 months searching for job. Indeed, the market is not that good, but still, I landed one now, so it's not "dead" by any means (and recently, some Clojure jobs started to pop on my channels, so not even Clojure ones are "dead")

And... speaking of different experiences - I had also the opposite experience regarding visas here on Uruguay. Everything was so simple that I ended up thinking "is that all?". The whole process took two weeks, tops, and after these two weeks I already had a temporary citizenship at the country, and 4 months later, a permanent one 😄

From my observation job in Clojure strictly depend where you live. Small linkedin research: change living place to US and get offer literally everyday, but nobody will hire you because you not live in US. Change it to for example Poland and nobody will write to you.

> change living place to US and get offer literally everyday I live in the States and the Clojure market is extremely tight atm, partly because of some layoffs in notable Clojure-utilizing companies. In general (Clojure or not), the current US market for devs is highly competitive. Too many talented individuals are seeking good opportunities simultaneously.

Change it to for example Poland and nobody will write to you.Or Lithuania.

And when I say layoffs, consider for example a company like Amazon. Amazon employs almost two million people! And when they lay off employees, they let go of tens of thousands at once. And more recently, Tesla laid off over 5,000 people.

Also, browsing Fortune 500 companies' job listings tells me that a significantly large number of companies are now switching to outsourcing overseas. That can make you feel very tired because you don't know where to go next. It's not enough to be a generalist anymore. If you're a full-stack developer, you must not only know but are expected to have expertise in various front-end frameworks - react, angular, vue, next; cloud computing, AI - machine learning, NLP, data mining; DevOps, infrastructure, cybersecurity, distributed systems, big data, etc. You have to possess some Ph.D. level erudite knowledge about pretty much everything. Alternatively, you need to have years of experience in some very unusual, niche tech (e.g. COBOL) and pray that someone hires you.

I think we’re all aligned that there is no quick hack out of the situation. Only various tough ways and how tough exactly depends on the personal situation and, in terms of the relocation option, also the destination. As with all tough things, one needs luck and persistence.

If I didn't have child support to pay there's a good chance I would give up coding altogether and slide more into the leadership / mentor / advisory role that us crusty old devs sometimes end up in, perhaps even trying to go down to 3 days a week as a consultant, but for the next 6 years I have bills to pay(tm) that mean I need to do my day-job (which includes coding, though not Clojure at the moment alas) and preferably figure out a side-hustle from what I know as well... TLDR; I feel ya, I would love to be able to make a living from my true passion (photography), but I am going to plough this furrow until I make it through or break the plough, if you see what I mean. Good luck - I would love to hear a success story (or two) about breaking out of the wage-slavery aspect of Software Engineering and making a break for the hills, so to speak...

Clojure job market looks like a crawling corpse nowadays, possibly because startups were choosing Clojure as they were founded by enthusiasts, then the funding dried up IDK. But scoring a good tech job in other fields is still possible, albeit hrder than just recently. I still see a number of ML/Statistics/Big Data/Numerical calc. jobs that offer decent pay. Classical "web dev" became a low paying sweatjob tho.

I think it's not crawling and no longer even a corpse. But I think that recently there was an improvement overall.

> Clojure job market looks like a crawling corpse nowadays, Maybe it's not such a bad thing, who knows? Perhaps it means that unlike other programming language stacks, there's not much churn and there's no constant reimagining of bicycle design. Also, we already know that typical projects in Clojure don't require massively inflated teams. I would dismiss the idea that "Clojure is not suitable for extra big projects," as I don't think there's any truth to that. The problem, I think, is that in big tech companies today, there's a lack of architects, principal engineers, and tech leads - the ones calling the shots, who have ever taken the time to try Lisp. Any Lisp, not just Clojure. That is true tragedy, because it feels like a huge talent pool, a big chunk of the entire generation is oblivious to the existence of a remarkably different way of programming.