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#jobs-discuss
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2019-05-25
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kwladyka05:05:04

I am writing it just to let you better understand the market of hiring in 2019. Not complaining, seriously 🙂 Maybe I need to share some kind of pre-goodbye 😉 I really love Clojure and community. The game changed for me as an European Union citizen live in Poland. I can’t find a good remote work in 2019 in Clojure / ClojureScript. There is only a few job offer and a huge trend to not hire remotely if you are not from US / UK. It is forcing me to start looking a job as DevOps / Product Owner / Operations and other positions which I like too and people will hire remotely. I will miss so much my ( ) after so many years. But I will use Clojure / ClojureScript for all my hobby projects probably 🙂 But who knows what job will bring me tomorrow. Market is changing guys, worth to notice it.

seancorfield05:05:11

@kwladyka Don't give up altogether -- keep an eye open and see what opportunities might come along. Sometimes it takes time.

seancorfield05:05:17

Keep learning Clojure in your personal time so you're better prepared if a work opportunity appears -- and always remember that sometimes the way to become a Clojure/Script developer is to introduce it where you work, slowly, quietly, for the little things.

kwladyka05:05:42

Thank you. I don’t give up, but I see it is not efficient anymore. I can find a work relocating to UK, but it is not a thing what I want to do.

seancorfield05:05:43

Where I work used to be a ColdFusion shop before I introduced Clojure -- so you never know what's possible!

seancorfield05:05:08

I wouldn't want to relocate to the UK either, with Brexit, and I'm originally from there!

gklijs06:05:11

The programming language isn't everything, but it's indeed hard to find fully remote work in Europe. Some companies won't even allow you to work a few hours from home. Most are a bit more tolerant but most of the times one day a week working from home is accepted. Two intakes next week, for one of them I may use Clojure, as it's for an internal tool, which will be pretty much a one men job.

mpenet09:05:21

I guess it depends on the country, I found the opposite.

kwladyka08:05:26

> The programming language isn’t everything Clojure is everything 😛 😉

orestis09:05:21

Fully remote work is hard because of tax and labor laws etc.

mpenet09:05:05

Yes that’s usually the problem. It's easier to setup shop as a contractor/independent if you want to work for a company abroad. The admin is then on you and you have to think about extra costs when you bill.

jr0cket08:05:41

I did this for a company based in Australia, when I was based in the UK. It took me a few hours to create a company online and figure out how much an account and indemnity insurance cost. The only weird part was I had to give the employer an hourly rate, so had to do a bit more math. If you want to operate in Europe (regardless of location) then you can apply for an e-residency in countries like Estonia https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/e-residency

anantpaatra00:06:32

@ have you applied for e-Estonia? I'm very curious about it since they introduced it but never met anyone with actual experience to share.

jr0cket08:06:39

Not yet. I first heard about it at a (sensible) debate on Brexit. There was a team from Estonia at the Devoxx UK conference the other week and I had a quick chat with them. It all seems pretty straight forward. If I do contracting again it seems very worthwhile. They have a decent banking system too.

vemv13:05:22

One can try converting the value proposition from "hire a remote worker" to "engage into international commerce with a small agency". - Incorporate under the most robust legal form money can buy - Have some smaller clients - Work in a private office in a respectable place, not from home - Hire interns, and eventually actual employees That would keep things legal and legal-looking, which is just as important I see how this could be a somewhat disproportionate effort just to keep the ( ) dream alive, but I think it's something you can do, particularly when you have some experience and could work in the UK for at least a season, accumulating funds and sharpening the chops. cc/ @kwladyka

orestis14:05:55

As someone who would soon be hiring, the thing that worries me the most about remote workers is the process of onboarding them in a company that is otherwise not remote friendly. I could turn the eng team into remote-first but what about everyone else?

orestis14:05:16

Perhaps remote-friendly is not the right word, it’s mostly not remote-capable or remote-experienced. I’ve been working fully remotely for 9 years before going back to an office, but others do not and suddenly communications become more difficult.

orestis14:05:25

I wonder if it would be easier if people come to the office a couple of weeks in the first month, then a week every second month or so.

orestis14:05:34

@vemv Yes, it seems like there’s quite a few small Clojure agencies around. It’s an interesting value proposition — I’m not sure what the tradeoffs are though. (from the point of view of the employer)

kwladyka15:05:15

> but I think it’s something you can do Sure I can, but while I have wife etc. I am not sure this investment to relocate to UK to maybe get a work later remotely and could back to Poland make sense. Probably not. I love Clojure but considering live it is not worth it. It doesn’t make sense even from economical point of view. I counted it very carefully. The point is I have experience and skills, but I can’t get a good Clojure work in 2019 because I live in Poland (mainly not live in US / UK) 😉

kwladyka15:05:01

> I wonder if it would be easier if people come to the office a couple of weeks in the first month, then a week every second month or so. In each job I talk to people 1on1 (only 1on1 works) remotely one by one and it is ok

kwladyka15:05:47

of course not about job 😉

vemv16:05:47

I see! That's perfectly reasonable. It came to mind now, I've never secured two Clojure contracts in a row (I'm at my 4th). Freelancing has this feast-or-famine component, right?

orestis16:05:30

How long are these contracts usually? Weeks/months/years? Full time or part time? Exclusive or can have more than one client simultaneously?

vemv16:05:03

full-time, length depending on project / our relationship, I was never asked for exclusivity in-between those Clojure contracts, I had to find Ruby or node.js ones

kwladyka16:05:10

my last had 2 years (my decision to change) and second half a year but ended unexpected for not my fault

kwladyka16:05:30

but I always do it for not defined time in contract

orestis17:05:52

Thanks for the help! Be on the lookout at #jobs for a post from me - hopefully in the coming weeks there will be something there :)