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Yes I think you are right.

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:50

Hey guys ! I have a few questions I hope you can help me answer. So I've done some formal studies but let's say I dropped out to go to a school that doesn't deliver a diploma ( just a certificate ) ( it's called 42 for those of you who are curious ) I'm starting to consider my options since I don't really feel like going back to my country after I'm done ( Morocco ) do you think it's possible to get a work permit without any diploma assuming I manage to get recruited ? ( I think tech as a field is very open to self taught people as long as you can prove you're skilled and you provide value )

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:51

It would be cool to have an idea of each countries requirements that way I can start thinking about the procedures


@fahd.elmazouni I can tell you the deal in Spain which is obviously one of your closest choices


@fahd.elmazouni 1.- job market is pretty good for junior devs. I believe they're more sought-after than senior ones, particularly when they have a mixture of talent and energy. 2.- It's pretty common for devs to not have college studies at all here (technical education instead). In a few jobs I wasn't asked at all about education at hire time 3.- Legally you just need a formal job offer. Spanish government barely checks (afaict) your qualififactions. But the offer has be be real, not from a friend who just created a company 4.- I'd recommend visiting Barcelona/Madrid, claiming you live there so you get the feet on the door. Long letters from abroad will be likely ignored 5.- There's almost no Clojure here. Personally I started in the industry by picking something close (Ruby) 6.- In all cases build an open source portfolio! Mixture of personal project with FOSS contributions. Will make you stand out.

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:34

Thanks for the tips ! Do you think it's a big problem that I don't speak Spanish and won't be fluent ?


If you get a job at a startup the team will likely use English. Anecdotically, in a team of all Spaniards (except one Brazilian), we decided to speak EN because of this single person. So you could say we're welcoming 🙂

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:04

I'll look into it ! thank you

🙌 4

i think the job aspect won't be too hard provided you're a capable dev. The tougher part will be convincing a government you're capable since they tend to be somewhat more conservative about qualifications.

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:05

That's exactly why I'm worried. Getting a job is easy, being allowed to stay is a whole other story. My school enjoys a good reputation in France especially in Paris and the demand is quite high but the French government manages foreigners very badly and everytime you have to deal with them you feel like you're sub human


yeah unfortunately governments haven't really kept up with the current industry realities.


but i think some countries (ireland comes to mind) make it pretty easy for certain "in demand" jobs (like programmers) as long as you meet the salary requirements


a lot of countries want you to show a degree or an "equivalent" amount of experience. IIRC USA sets a 3:1 ratio for experience:university an equivalent to 4 year degree would be 12 years of experience.


But...if you have a certificate or diploma of 2 or 3 years that would count against that, so then you would need 6 years, for example

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:44

Still crazy :/ I have 6 months experience so far, and by the time I'm done with my studies I'll have one year. Not counting the time I spent working on the school's projects


By experience I mean documented professional work experience and not projects at school or whatever.


You should, throughout your career if travel is one of your goals, make sure to get letters from each of your employer (upon leaving) stating the dates that you worked there and what your position was and how much you were paid.


and keep those / make digital backups


Usually you can get some kind of pay / tax summary from them too which helps

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:43

does a copy of the contract do the trick ?


Sure, that's fine too...the letters are better though because they're easy for whoever is reviewing your file to get the necessary information.


if you're working with a lawyer though they'll tell you the right information to provide. Just make sure to keep everything!

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:28

So which countries should I be considering ? I can speak good English, french and Arabic ( but I don't think that would come in handy, don't really want to go to a Muslim majority country )


I used to live in Luxembourg, French is one of the official languages there.


No idea about the job market, lots of banks and consulting companies.


unfortunately there isn't (or i havent personally been able to find) a resource like what you're asking for where it lists countries and work visa requirements. Ultimately you're just gonna have to spend a bunch of time narrowing down the choices.


And since you're early in your career you may have to settle for a country that isn't your first choice to get some experience under your belt.


Like I said though I think Ireland might be a good one to look into, last I looked at their immigration policies for programmers it seemed pretty straightforward


Maybe @vemv has some good insight about spain, I don't really know very much about it.

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:20

Thanks I'll have a look


it would be pretty cool if there was a site that let you browse work permits around the world


it would be a shitload of work for someone to put together though

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:44

I once heard of a startup that works with foreigners

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:06

Like some kind of specialized recruiter

Fahd El Mazouni13:08:16

I should look for it


never heard of it, but i'd be interested to know what it is if you figure it out!


try /r/IWantOut


there's a reddit for everything...


funny name


in the UK it's largely a case of meeting the salary requirements as long as you have a work visa iirc for in demand things

Fahd El Mazouni14:08:54

UK might be a good option, thank you !


make sure you take brexit into consideration


it hits March 2019 afair

Fahd El Mazouni14:08:24

will it make it harder or easier ? 😛


depending how the negotiations work out. it might eg harder to buy food


harder, and money will be worth less

Fahd El Mazouni14:08:38

oh yeah... bad move


but really nobody knows because people voted to leave without a plan.


yeah probably harder


What does "meeting the salary requirements" mean? "I want to be paid around what you offer"? Or is it more "I want/can reasonably expect to get the sort of job that pays at least X"?


“I already have a job that pays at least X” I think


There is a limited number of visas, as the quota gets hit the salary requirement moves

Fahd El Mazouni14:08:13

it's very frustrating how limited you are once you leave your home country. It's like you're only entitled to your freedom as long as you stay inside the arbitrary borders you were born in ( and the freedom you get is the freedom the local government decides you can get... ) saddens me to the core.


The EU was a nicer pattern for that, and then of course we've voted to leave it...

Fahd El Mazouni14:08:50

xD I understand the need to have borders and restrictions on movement and stuff like that... But still, it's not like I'm a security risk, or a financial liability... I guess their way of deciding whether or not you are just doesn't work well for everyone. ( Sorry for the rant )


im with you on that.


but yeah usually you need a contract first and the contract has to meet the minimum salary requirements to get the visa


although countries sometimes have working holiday visas, usually for young people.


so in that case you could (assuming you get the visa) move to the country and find work afterward