@jgh @jonathan604 £60k - £80k a bit low? That's GBP right? I'd think that's pretty good especially for a non-finance position 🙃

$100k usd is pretty lpw

low

UK salaries are usually much lower then the US ones

but we have free healthcare

The second doesn't excuse the first.

And just because salaries are "usually lower" doesn't mean it's what's right.

Paying someone £60-80k is fine, but they should throw in some equity too for that price, especially since talented people could go to the US and make twice that plus equity.

or even work remotely for US companies.

If you wanted and were allowed to go to Gilead 🙂

I think that's a defeatist attitude. Companies outside of the US tend to pay low and complain about not being able to fill positions and local governments bellyache about brain drain

Canada's the same way, I'm not trying to pick on the UK in particular. When I was out in California I'd get calls occasionally from companies to outsource to Canada which I found a bit insulting.

"High" dev salaries in Toronto (which is an expensive city) are around CA$120k which is roughly $90k USD. So by that measure London is better.

If you want a higher salary in the UK you would go contracting

which would potentially get you to ~180k USD

after tax

hah how come you can get so much more by being a contractor than an employee in the UK?

taxes and more chances to negotiate and in general a lot of more experienced folks end up contracting so their rates tend to be higher

also keep in mind that all those salaries assume usually 25 days of holiday + 8 public holidays

that's still a really big difference all things considered. Interesting.

as a contractor you don’t have employee rights and can be fired on the spot

you take greater risk

but then it doesn’t feel so in software …

yeah

Yeah, London demands more because the cost of living there is so much higher, but outside London 50-60k for senior devs and 60-80k for team leads and such is a very reasonable salary that provides a very good standard of living. Govt etc industries tend to be a bit lower, around 40-50k for seniors and 50-60 for team leads

Tbh if I was offered significantly in excess of that I'd be asking questions like "Why is your work environment so toxic/stressful that you need to pay that much to attract/keep staff?"

I'd rather be on 50k and a good work/life balance than 100k and being expected to work >40 hours a week regularly or only getting 14 days holiday a year or whatever

this is just settling for whatever people give you though. Let's say they're making £800k/year off of your efforts, you think you should be getting paid £50k? How come that sales guy gets paid much more than you do? Because he's good with people he deserves much more?

If I go out anywhere in the UK and expect £100k+ as a senior software engineer I'm going to get laughed out the interview. Whether I think I'm worth that or not, and whether I'm right or deluded, doesn't really matter. The company knows the countrywide ballpark, and that's waaaay over it. I'm good, but I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm one of the best in the country, so they can find someone else who'll happily work for 60k and consider themselves well paid rather than pay me £100k, even if I'm the ideal candidate

And you couldn't pay me enough to go and work in the States, or London. I've got plenty of friends who work in the Big Smoke, and a few who've gone over to the US to be software engineers for the likes of Adobe and Apple, and I wouldn't do that for all the tea in China

@jgh The sales guy knows how to sell stuff, including him/herself 🙂

yes indeed. It's also easier for him to justify his worth since he's closer to the money. However I don't think devs should be discouraged from trying to get what they can out of companies. Ultimately they're the ones creating the value to be sold, so they deserve compensation as much as the sales guy does.

That's a lovely theory, but I think you're mistaking what the market happens to support for what's ethically true. The two don't have much to do with each other. Might as well say, "US developers should be getting $400k, and if you don't demand that, you're getting cheated!" There's not some reason why the US market value of developers is magically the correct one. They're different markets -- although obviously not entirely disconnected -- and they support different salary expectations.

im not advocating people go in with unrealistic expectations. You obviously cant be totally out of line with what the local market supports. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to push it. Ultimately what can I do though, I'm one guy who will continue to moan about dev salaries on the internet.

🤷 FWIW, the US dev market seems kind of insane to me, and leads me to update my beliefs about whether we might be in a bubble. I'm def not counting on it continuing to be so hot. Doesn't mean I won't take advantage of it while I can, though 😉

Typical starting salary for senior clojure devs has increased so dramatically in just the last 2-3 years that I question its sustainability.

im not so sure it is a bubble tbh... tech companies are insanely profitable, i think its just the way the world is changing. Now that doesnt mean salaries wont “normalize” as more people enter the field, but i dont imagine its gonna be like the first bubble.

i thought it was at first, but now im not so shre

Oh, I'm not sure either! I don't think anyone really knows. I just feel like this kind of super-rapid salary inflation is something we don't usually see in a stable market. But I haven't tried to actually look at the data on that, it's just my impression.

As someone who was born and raised -- and worked about half of my career -- in England but now works in California, I'll second what the Brits/Europeans are saying here: US dev salaries are out of whack with global market values.

In the US, developers get ridiculously high salaries compared to other jobs. It's led to a lot of problems in Silicon Valley where house prices have rocketed because software company employees can afford it and want to live near their work.

It also contributes to why so many high-tech companies outsource to China, India, and Eastern Europe. They can be more profitable by not paying US dev salaries.

Interesting discussion... as a Canadian who worked in Canada, then lived/worked in Taiwan, then NJ and now CA I agree things are crazy here 🙂

As I've considered Europe as a possible place to live now that the son is almost in college, it's hard not looking at the salaries and wondering if they can provide a living... but being realistic I know they must be market and many things appeal to me.

Here's the question: If it is not a bubble, are the US salaries really that far out of whack? Is it ROW that is lagging? Is the 'real' price somewhere in between?

(ftr im a canadian: toronto -> LA -> france)

It's not just "US salaries", but salaries by region. I've been approached by recruiters in the Mid-west and other places about remote Clojure roles - the salary is off by at least 50% of what I could consider.

How's France for Clojure? 🙂

Well compare it to other jobs in other industries. In the UK software engineers compare favourably to other skilled ‘engineer’ jobs at a similar level, pilots employed by the good/big/well paying airlines, doctors and surgeons, architects, lawyers in ‘normal’ roles, etc etc. Do I think we’re worth significantly more than them? No. Do I think we/they should be paid even more than they already are over teachers, police officers, etc etc? Again, no. So I would say the salaries in Europe are positioned about right. If they should be more, then so should the salaries of most other jobs out there, which in turn would just increase house prices etc so that that increased wage doesn’t actually get you much more