Fork me on GitHub
#hoplon
<
2018-04-30
>
alandipert15:04:00

@hiskennyness all very interesting. ive personally been refreshed the last year working in a bigger community (R), which i imagine is kind of similar to JS world in that individual programming experience approaches zero since the community is growing so fast

alandipert15:04:57

and so there are plenty of opportunities to foist weird ideas 😬

kennytilton15:04:05

@thedavidmeister And now all the React+Redux people have to switch to Relay/GraphQL. What happened to “we do not tell you how to manage state”? I am also hearing interesting noises about not allowing business logic on the client. Is Facebook about to discover Rails? btw, server-side everything is how I got started in web programming, with Common Lisp driving qooxdoo. There’s nothing new under the sun.

thedavidmeister15:04:28

i'm looking at less server >.<

thedavidmeister15:04:31

i'm just contrary

alandipert15:04:39

i guess in a sense the whole SPA thing is an efficiency hack... reduce latency by reducing server/client interaction to business-level protocol

thedavidmeister15:04:01

i feel like server is a hack

thedavidmeister15:04:13

because our "web" doesn't have a good p2p model yet

alandipert15:04:35

seems like the applicability of p2p depends on the type of app

alandipert15:04:16

like in amazon's case... there's really only one source of truth about how many copies of a book they have in the warehouse

kennytilton15:04:42

Ah, but as we data flowers know, the point sensitivity lets us minimize round trips. But yeah, no round trips has an edge.

kennytilton15:04:10

I think “business logic on the client” is just another hogoblin to scare the kiddies, myself. The app is gonna go somewhere, and wherever it goes I control the code.

thedavidmeister15:04:53

but why does amazon need a server with business logic to store data about the number of books they have?

alandipert15:04:01

i guess there is a category of things you cant do without building state javascript. like autocomplete. and so it would require changes to the browser model to remove all js/state from the client

kennytilton15:04:51

“Minimize” is the wrong word. We get more roundtrips but with tiny payloads.

👍 1
thedavidmeister15:04:34

there's things that you need "client" for

alandipert15:04:42

@thedavidmeister because only they know when books have been shipped, and shipping is transactional

thedavidmeister15:04:45

the list of things you need "server" for gets a little shorter every year

thedavidmeister15:04:20

that's just auth logic though

thedavidmeister15:04:33

and yes, i agree that currently auth is something servers are still needed for

alandipert15:04:41

i can imagine an applicaiton-level http reverse proxy tracking sessions and sending structural diffs at the http level, with some kind of browser support

alandipert15:04:52

and all the session state is in a server-side db, with something like lambda functions doing the logic

alandipert15:04:21

i can imagine FB et al wanting to do this to be able to ship very minimal clients. so they don't need to worry as much about updating apps

alandipert15:04:31

not that this would be good for every app tho. since supporting the idea requires buy-in across every level

alandipert15:04:45

vs. the current spa situation which is, we need an http server that can send and receive json

thedavidmeister15:04:15

this is something being worked on though

thedavidmeister15:04:28

did you see my article on holochain?

thedavidmeister15:04:40

they're looking at spas that are less server-y

thedavidmeister15:04:03

i imagine things like webassembly will bring new stuff too

thedavidmeister15:04:37

if your SPA framework has to retreat to the server to get shit done, that's not the best sign 😕

alandipert15:04:37

oh, i'm not saying we should do like they're doing lol

alandipert15:04:18

just that the economies of FB and goog are weird and inscrutable. but if i try hard i feel like i can imagine why they would be doing things

alandipert15:04:37

webcomponents btw

alandipert15:04:59

they still claim they're the future but the spec has been in turmoil for many years now

thedavidmeister15:04:48

honestly i'm pretty happy

thedavidmeister15:04:04

i have an abstraction for the DOM that looks like HTML

thedavidmeister15:04:30

the turmoil stresses me out

alandipert15:04:12

yeah what we have was and is still really good i think

alandipert15:04:32

not stressin' either 😄

alandipert15:04:50

i learned this recently, it's the term lol

alandipert15:04:37

am i supposed to be learning a new framework or programming paradigm right now

thedavidmeister15:04:15

oh yes i know all about FOMO haha

thedavidmeister15:04:33

i'm too old to be relearning basic HTML every year 😞

thedavidmeister16:04:50

but i get FOMO for other things for sure

kennytilton18:04:50

I think I have proven that they can shut down the Web components initiative. That was looking a tad scary/convoluted. Just Write Functions(tm)!

alandipert18:04:19

... and in the cell graph, bind them