hey! so I have this app with reloadable code and I wonder if I can create an anonymous cell, which won't be recreated on every run

defonce? or wrap it in a local storage-atom

oh, anonymous, so no defonce

id go the storage atom approache probably, https://github.com/alandipert/hoplon-contacts-demo/blob/master/src/index.cljs.hl#L6

local-storage is returning the cell there

i am really digging hoplon. /justsayin

@esp1: nice to hear! what were you using before?

om/reagent

it’s not just hoplon tho, it’s the whole idea u guys have of turning everything into an immutable lisp (boot, etc). so sweet

the point micha made in his talk about hoplon being about values vs react being about events kind of sold me

thanks, its been fun Lisping everything

we didn't even have to invent anything, just put the pieces together and convince our bosses

well you may be standing on the shoulders of giants but i’m standing on yours now too. really great stuff, thank you!

"if i haven't seen as far as other men, it's because i have giants standing on my shoulders"

-- woody allen

lol

@esp1 i'd be curious to hear what other thoughts you might have on react vs hoplon

i haven't used react at all except for hello world toy things

well, i’m still pretty new to hoplon so i don’t know that i can make much of an informed comparison for the exact opposite reason

but even so far it’s highlighting to me that a lot of things like all of react’s lifecycle methods, or all the craziness going on in that area re state management are solved much more elegantly when dealing with values vs events

composition becomes much easier as well

behaviors > events

amen

The biggest difference for me is that react has a render loop with lifecycles. In some ways it’s closer to app development. It’s got its strengths and weaknesses. For one thing, I miss being able to just (if) things out instead of using css to hide components.

react was a revelation to me in terms of how much nicer it made ui programming, but hoplon has been even more of a revelation, which is kind of insane

@levitanong: we will have suport for the if style soon

Hurrah!

The other thing is, loop-tpl has to bind to a “real” element, so I can’t pass loop-tpl as a “child” of a custom component

@levitanong: another thing that will be fixed soon

But the rest of Hoplon is just too nice to give up. Haha! I’m willing to live with the warts

that's a crucial part of the recipe

though i’m really relieved to hear the warts will be excised soon

all the differences between custom element and real element will be removed soon, hopefully

with the code that's in the works

so exciting!

can’t wait

i am going to have some time off soon to work on this

:thumbsup:

Would you guys perchance also plan to have some kind of transition hooks for the if forms

?

Like, some kind of transition when the component is “entering” and “leaving"

perhaps

want to avoid that if possible though

There must be some more idiomatic way of doing it, but I’m coming from react, so that’s the only way I can express it

the lifecycle hooks make it difficult for people who aren't programmers

that's my main concern with it

i want to make hoplon accessible to UX and designer types

well, they can be optional, no? 😄 to support the guys who do both design/UX and program

yep

@levitanong what’s your use case?

but i think there may be a way for hoplon to figure it out on its own

So right now I’m using hoplon to create really quick iOS design prototypes (i hate working with adobe illustrator and photoshop, and prefer to work with code)

as I navigate the prototype, I want to also be able to convey the components transitioning in and out, as they would in the final app (useful for communicating with the native dev)

Right now, because if isn’t supported, it isn’t much of an issue, as i have to use CSS to hide things anyway, so it’s trivial to just transition between hidden and shown states

once if comes in, it will be a challenge figuring out how to animate from simply not being there, to being there and offscreen, then finally to being in its resting visible state.

i’m guessing that the if style in hoplon will be supported by allowing formula cells to be composed alongside normal elements

@esp1 bingo

You mean (cell= (if condition custom-component))?

levitanong: it seems like css is a cleaner solution there, no?

@micha: You have a point. 😛 But using css to hide things just seems so… wrong.

it's a brave new world

but we can shave that yak, don't worry

like i can imagine something along the lines of

^ I have never encountered that idiom, but I love it

(with-transition :fade-in "fast" :zoom-out "slow"
  (cell= (when pred? (div ...))))

something declarative and not involving events explicitly

:O That is beautiful

that would return a new formula cell

that does the thing

i think with-transition itself can be implemented as a formula cell, no?

yeah it doesn't need to be a macro probably

once the framework is in place we can experiment with various APIs

but i think we can avoid explicit lifecycles in this way

are cells garbage collected?

not currently

that's the main thing we need to hammer out

javascript doesn't have weak references

without that we can't let the garbage collector just collect them

because they need to hold references to each other

so we will need to devise a suitable workaround

not ideal, but i think we can make it tolerable

Welp, I’m off to bed. Have a great day, guys!

👋 see ya!

@micha cell-let is a thing right?

indeed

it does what i think? destructure a cell into a bunch of other cells?

yes

@micha: re: angular using the comment node as sentinel, do you think that's what we should use as the loop-tpl sentinel node type?

@alandipert: i'm not sure it will work

but it was an interesting approach that i hadn't considered