@tjg as horrible as all that is. How is it related to our slack?

At the very beginning, @meow asked me: > I'm interested in your views on patriarchy and alternative systems.

I mentioned I'd take some time to compress my thoughts, and here I am.

And I wanted to wait until you two fellows were done discussing, so not to derail your conversation.

BTW it’s a huge subject; for example, what are non-patriarchal societies like? I watched a couple anthropologists discuss this, and one mentioned people get laid a lot more. (I hesitate to mention that because it’s not the biggest or most ethical reason to abolish patriarchy, but it shows that patriarchy harms men too. Anyone interested might ask David Graeber or someone for evidence.)

Lets assume we (as in the western we) live in patriarchy. Whats the alternative to patriarchy then?

I think it’s easiest to see patriarchy as a successful social movement. Which imposed a huge infrastructure on us, down to weird things like gendered dress codes. We can compare ourselves to times/places where patriarchy was more dominant. Society was a lot more conformist: England drove Alan Turing to suicide just because he’s gay, wives were property and couldn’t serve on juries, etc. (And if you hate say capitalism, liberating women is probably in your interest because they’re affected even worse by it. So they’re natural allies in that fight.) We can also compare extremes who live right next to each other, like Rojava vs. ISIS. One enslaves half their population; the other empowers them to double their strength.

So we can kinda extrapolate from that, what an improved society would look like.

(To more directly answer that question: I think alternatives to patriarchy are counter-movements... feminism, Participatory Society, parts of anarchism, etc.)

I agree with most of your points I guess, more or less. However, there is one thing that I dislike, no matter the context or topic. These are the anti-movements. I always found it strange to be against something. Of course, when I was young it felt natural. Being a leftwing I was against right wings and so on. It soon occurred to me that it makes more sense to try to include people. Most of the people that behave "anormal" in whatever way, have problems. We need to solve their problems and so they can stop pushing their weird / broken ideologies or own ideas how to solve their problems. Prohibition and anti drug laws never solved problems, for instance.

And all of what has been discussed is why I created the #C0JDNS75G channel. I like being one step ahead. 😉