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@meow: Sure! Need some time to think where to start, unless you have questions or want to go in some direction...
Can we start from the beginning, if you don't mind, with the ideas you originally tried to introduce on the #C0CB40N8K channel?
Well, my first post (about "patriarchy")... I regretted as too vague, and likely I didn't give myself time to focus on what people were really talking about.
TBH, the way the discussion in #C0CB40N8K turned out makes me fear a bit. I notice two things
1. I am afraid to say what I think because I guess my tone is way to harsh without meaning it personal. But I get the feeling that people might take it personal and
2. This makes me think of an essay by Paul Graham: "What you can't say": http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html which basically says that a society is defined by what you are not allowed to say.
I always thought this was ridicioulus, but now, the first time in my life, I feel it for myself. I am afraid to say my opinion.
@sveri: I agree. I am not an admin on Slack. I'm not sure who is ultimately leading the community and why certain things cannot be discussed. We are all adults. Discussing while disagreeing is what adults are expected to do.
I created this channel, put in a clear warning about the content, and will defend our right to discuss absolutely anything within the safety of this channel.
@meow: That sounds good. Although I want to say that I make a clear difference between a strong discussion and personal insults. A good discussion should be based on facts and opinions without insulting other people.
I just had a funny thought. This channel here reminds me of the smoker zones that we have at the stations here in germany. These are small spaces, bordered by yellow lines where people are allowed to smoke.
Well, since we are in this channel, I suppose we can talk about it. At the same time, this channel might get me kicked off of Slack.
The online roleplaying that I do is my own creation, not a traditional or other-defined game.
You can ask me anything and I will answer honestly. You might not like or agree with my answers, and that's okay.
Yea, no problem. Actually I often thought about creating a kind of MMORPG with sexual content only for adults. I think this is a market where you might earn a lot of money and that is not saturated yet. Given the AI improvements we have there might be a lot of bots so that every member can get its sexual counterpart in some way. Or the other way around, for every pleasure there is a NPC waiting 😄
I am working on something along those lines. But a bot would never work for me. I roleplay with real people.
I have Andy OS installed on a Windows 10 laptop so I have an Android environment in which to run Kik.
Sorry 😄 I how we started out thinking about moving the community to braid chat, but then got lost on the track
Slighly off-topic, I do find it interesting that gay people can come out of the closet and get support from the community,
But as a polyamorous sadomasochist I am still shunned and reviled by the majority of society,
I think it's a matter of convenience. The society gets accustomed that there are gay people, because they exist for a long time and speak out for some time too. Polyamorysm (or whatever the english ism word for that is :D), is just not that long in the media. 10 or 20 years in it, it might be more accepted I guess.
I was married and monogomous and never cheated for 24 years, ending in divorce. I tried monogomy and will never do it again.
If you criticize their code, saying something like "that function really sucks" they take it personally.
Why beat around the bush. Nobody is ever more critical of my code than I am. So I welcome someone with the courage to just tell me when it sucks.
Well, there is a twist in critics. Being constructive usually means you cannot go out and tell someone that something they created sucks. I see that from a different perspective. If I see bad code what do I want? 1. I want it to be changed to good / better code 2. I want the person that wrote the code to learn about it, understand it's failures and so on. These are my goals. To achieve it, it does not work to say "that function sucks". There are a few people that can handle being direct, but most cannot, that's just the reality I have to accept.
I agree that my stance was extreme. I think what's important is that we get to know each other as people.
Yea, that makes sense. Fake politeness usually is as bad as shouting out without being constructive
I think there was a culture of common sense that somehow got lost along the way over the last years.
Right, but the "rules" push us to that lowest common denominator of always being "polite".
This looks interesting, although, I find it strange to find the Federation of Hemophilia publish about such a topic. Thanks, I will save that for later
There have been complaints made to the admins about my attempts to engage the female community in #C0CB40N8K .
Apparently they are tired of having to explain things to men and want to be left out of it all.
I went to a lot of groups in an attempt to make sure the entirety of the community was represented and knew they were welcome to participate.
You relate to this question: "would love to have input on discussions taking place on #C0CB40N8K regarding gender bias in open source"?
I don't get it. Also, I totally dislike snitching. I just have a hard time teaching my kid to stop snitching, stand for himself and resolve things for himself. I never understood why people go out and complain about somebody else. This is totally off of my mind, except in very harsh cases of course.
In school I got picked several times and when I complained about it, teachers usually just told me to resolve it myself. When, at fist it was hard for me to accept that, I learned a lot in that time and it helped throughout my whole life.
Yep. Nobody has complained to me personally. But I have total respect for the admins so I don't hold it against them. They have a tough job.
That's what I liked about the usenet and mailing list a lot and I think this is something missing here. A killfile or the option to ignore people. It would make it easy for the others. These who feel offended can just ignore all these offenders and nobody would have to deal with it.
Of course I would prefer talking to each other, but ignoring at least does not make more work for the admins.
Yes. At the same time, it is still up to the community to use the tool most effectively, however insufficient the tool might be.
True, you can only use what you have and if you miss something, try to come up with common sense
I understand that not everyone wants to hear about sex in a tech group. But I'm working on chat systems to support online BDSM roleplaying. Why can't I talk about that?
It will just be a server instance configured to support the type of communication I need.
Yea, but once you have a community it will hard to track these people to somehwere else
The customers provide value, software is just a tool. I'll be back in ca. 30 minutes, will talk then, if you want
@meow: Well, things lasted longer than thought, I am off now, going to bed. Let me know how things go with braid chat
After today's conversation, here's my perspective... Women constantly get death threats (their families too) for saying what they think. Take Kathy Sierra: http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man (Maybe that's a big reason why women avoid opensource. Who wants to work for zero pay under such awful conditions?) And it's not just blatant violence. Trolls can also destroy forums. Paul Graham wrote: > trolls are willing to use a forum with a lot of thoughtful people in it, but thoughtful people aren't willing to use a forum with a lot of trolls in it. Which means that once trolling takes hold, it tends to become the dominant culture. That had already happened to Slashdot and Digg by the time I paid attention to comment threads there, but I watched it happen to Reddit. http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html