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Hello, folks! 👋


I see from the Slackpocalypse doc that we’ve evaluated mattermost as an alternative to slack.


Just wanted to call out, that nilenso (where I work) has built Relay (, which is hosted mattermost.


It’s free for communities without limits, and we can do a Slack import, and setup bridges to Slack, and IRC to try it out.


If someone shares a slack legacy token with me, or a mod grants my request for one, I can do ^ 🙂


I'm an Admin and I haven't seen a request for a token come through...


Hrm. That’s odd. Let me re-request it.


@seancorfield are there perhaps some controls you could see on the legacy tokens page?


We Admins grant all the requests that come through.


As it says there "Never share legacy tokens with other users or applications. Do not publish Legacy tokens in public code repositories."


Maybe it just takes a while for the request to come through for us to approve?


Last legacy API token approved was March 26th.


Oh, I requested it on 16th March or so.


March 14th. Just found it. Sorry that was missed.


Ah, no problem. I have a token now 🙂


I’ll setup a Relay instance, or a team on open.relay, and mirroring to slack. Will post link/details here when done.


@seancorfield is there a way I can get an export of the data? Mattermost has a built-in feature to import slack exports.


Relay looks like another corporate paid solution?


And, no, the admins are not going to provide you with an export of Slack's data.


Alright. I guess we could do an export/import if we choose to make the move.


As with all alternatives, set it up, provide links, see if people want to use it -- so far the result has been almost no takers for any alternative... but never stop trying 🙂


But then again, you all probably read this already


As much as I dislike the early shutdowns and pointers to the CoC I guess thats part of the reason while this community is so friendly, professional and focused despite its size. I have to admit, sometimes I feel like in a dictatorship (very seldom), but putting my ego aside I think this is needed so that the community can stay as it is. Thanks to the mods for that.


This was by no means a criticism of the admins around here @seancorfield is doing a stellar job! It was more a input to the discussion I’ve seen about slack being the appropriate medium.


I did not see it as a criticism of the mods. I was referring to his tweet: > 100 people - yay we’re all friends 1,000 people - this is a shitshow 10,000 people - nobody is posting anymore because what is the point even because this is something I dont see here happening


I didn’t recognize this problem with the Clojurians either.


FWIW, the use of a CoC here mirrors the use at Clojure/conj, Clojure/West, and Strange Loop -- so, yeah, it's part of the spirit of the Clojure community. And the core folks have always tried to keep the mailing list respectful as well.


I know and I agree that it makes sense, its just that I myself personnaly dislike CoCs


(and, yeah, sometimes it is going to come across as heavy-handed but if it keeps things polite and friendly and welcoming, then the benefits outweigh the drawbacks)


@sveri I see much more pushback on CoCs from Brits and some Europeans. There's definitely a cultural aspect to how well accepted they are.


Personally I find the need for CoC sad, because it’s just describing normal, decent behavior.


I am german myself, maybe its because of our history that we dislike "rules we have to obey"


(in one of the Slacks I run, the Brits pretty much insisted that they could have their own channel not governed by the CoC... and it was a "war zone" at times 👀 )


@seancorfield I’m Norwegian, and as I said, I’m just sad on the behalf of humanity that CoCs are needed. But I respect that they are.


As @slipset says, it's a shame we need CoCs because you'd hope folks could just remain civil to everyone in a (supposedly) professional environment. Having worked in offices in England for most of my life, they are often far-from-professional 😞


Back to the original topic -- I'm surprised Discource was considered a suitable alternative, given that it's basically a web forum / mailing list -- but perhaps Ghost never had a mailing list to supplement Slack, and that would be part of the problem?


Clojureverse is on discourse?


I think Clojurians does well on Slack because we have the mailing list (which is even bigger than Slack) and we have IRC and Clojureverse (Discourse, I believe), and Discord, and Gitter, and so on...


I guess my main gripe with slack is that a lot of the information from Clojurians is lost on the world.


Ie it’s not being picked up well by google.


I’d never join a community without a CoC.


@roberto is there a tipping point for you there? IIRC Clojure proper doesn't have a CoC per-se more a set of comments from Rich on how he'd like to see people interact.


I’ve had the same observations @seancorfield has about mostly Europeans and Brits not liking CoCs. I thought that maybe my observations were somehow skewed, but now that @seancorfield has also observed the same thing, I guess there is something to it.


I jest, but to borrow the meme: "I have a github and a CoC setup, so yeah, I'm serious about this project". 😄


Even if Clojure (the trademark) does not have one, the community does.


At least this one does, and the conferences I’ve attended


I’ve left a number of communities for not having one, and I presently have a hard rule of not joining any community that does not have one.


I've seen that transition point from no-CoC to a CoC to be troublesome in some communities. LLVM recently had some issues in that regard. People weren't being offensive, but a CoC was being pushed "just in case". I don't have any opinion in the area, but I do like to hear others'.


what was the problem that they found with the CoC?


Just not being told to be nice and decent with each other?


I remember the Groovy community despised CoCs, and there was a big pushback by community leaders. I left shortly after.


It wasn’t too long before a big fight occurred in their slack that got very ugly


and that community was mostly cis white men


@roberto if you don’t mind my asking, what does the CoC give you that is so important? I’m asking out of curiosity


No, just the idea of not wanting to sign on to some contract. The issue is always: is the CoC completely 100% clear as to repercussions in all areas? If not, you have a problem of invisible fences. If it is, people will feel restricted by the rules. And like any contract the question is what to do with those that won't sign, if 80% of the community sign, do you toss the remaining 20%?


It reassures me that the people who are part of it, agree in principle that everyone should be decent towards one another, and are aware of their own subconcious biases


Nothing is 100% clear


is not having one 100% clear?


why do you demand 100% rigor from a CoC, but not from not having one?


A CoC is not written in stone, I understand that it is subject to constant iteration and refinement.


Also, having a CoC is just one small part. The other portion is having community leaders that are trust worthy who will be try to be as fair as possible when moderating.


A CoC without any moderators is useless


I guess I come from a different age. To get access to USENET NEWS at the university, you had to read through and accept that your behavior and what you wrote was not only reflected upon yourself but also upon the university. The access was given to you and could very well be revoked.


I have been called out in a couple slack channels, and rightly so, by moderators, when I’ve made some improper comments. And I have appreciated that, because we all have our flaws. I was thankful for being called out.


especially in written media like slack/twitter, it is easy to say the wrong things, and add to that cultural differences, etc.


Yeah, and I think that's where some problems lie. So be completely honest, I grew up in a few "cult-like" organizations (yes, more than one, it's a long story). But the single biggest problem to these groups were people who had no oversight. One single person who was in charge and had all the power. So personally, I think the single biggest thing that can help a community is a strong group of leaders who all have equal power (moderators in essence).


and participating in communities with a CoC, that are well moderated, have thought to be better at communicating via these medium


But I'm not completely sure what adding a CoC does to improve that, besides adding loopholes to the situation.


although I guess it's hard for a moderator to act at all without pointing to some contract.


I think that a CoC combined with good leadership makes it easier for the leadership to explain why peoples behavior is bad.


yeah, and for newcomers to know what is expected of them. And for minorities to feel assured that they will be safe in that environment.


I’m old fashioned enough to expect people to know how to behave.


But I see that this is not the case.


everyone thinks they know how to behave


As @roberto mentioned though there's a culture problem there as well. A few years back I remember someone in an online community getting in trouble for using a swear word that was not a big deal in the UK, but was extremely offensive here in the US.


Also, having done some work with some people from Japan recently, I'm surprised they wanted to talk to me at all, lol


To be honest, just the existence of a CoC governing a conference / community is often enough to act as a reminder that "this community wants you to be civil and respectful of others".


(and, as a Brit, I totally get @tbaldridge’s point about cultural norms)


@seancorfield I get that, but who are these people who thought otherwise? Like I can go here and just harass anyone and get away with it?


some people don’t think they are harassing


but they make the other person feel uncomfortable with micro-aggressions


and if there aren’t any moderators to call their attention to that, then it can deteriorate


And I can get the swearing thing, I grew up with Eddy Murphy, and thought that was normal in the US. Apparently it isn’t.


yeah, especially in text mode


tone is hard to transmit in this medium


Anyways. Bed time.


I haven’t found the need to use curse words for a long time in any online community. It has improved my communication skill, and generally I stop and think if I really need to say something with the curse words before I press send. Most of the time, I don’t.


I do curse like a sailor when I’m pairing tho, especially when troubleshooting


That’s the point I guess. You curse when you know the people you’re with, but within a larger group of people or with people you don’t know you watch your language.

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My 2¢: A CoC is helpful because it aligns people on the same page, and gives an external standard for owners to point to instead of individual users being able to foist off individual reprimands or punishments as being 'subjective'.


Especially useful when you have a diverse group w/ diverse norms and expectations. A CoC to me is a sign of health, and simple boundaries are usually fruitful rather than harmful, if used as a gentle nudge more often than a club.


When groups come together ad hoc with no fixed rules, they'll eventually negotiate their own implicit rules; as more newcomers arrive, they have to learn those implicit rules by sink-or-swim. Explicit rules have the upside of being easily visible and learnable, with the downside that it can take some adjustment even for the group's original members.

dominicm23:04:56 I thought the point about competency was interesting here. I'd never considered that I'd have to handle that kind of thing if I ran a community. Must be very tough.

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It's a strange world, and that article makes a interesting point. I can see myself thinking "all I wanted to do was build cool software, now I have to deal with human counseling"