If thoughts need to persist, use a hosted document. Can we pin the hackpad, or will Slack archive that?

Although I get your meaning, I don’t completely agree: sometimes it’s the conversation itself that leads to solved problems.

@fellshard The hackpad is linked from the channel topic already

I just added it to the channel purpose as well

and now I’ll pin it as a message

https://hackpad.com/collection/wnikaeBENEE

Ahh, visited that earlier. Channel purpose isn't the first place I check, sorry.

Can direct folks to that instead of rehashing arguments, at least. Saves you some breath.

Channel topic should be automatically visible to everyone?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/86zwbxyj2odgn17/Screenshot%202016-09-19%2019.23.35.png?dl=0

It is, it's just... tucked up there at the top in small font

👀

I could add "READ THIS" in ALL CAPS next to it 😈

Doesn't help that clicking the link also puts the topic in 'edit' mode

Oh, I guess it doesn't

nvm, I'm just blathering

It threatens to, when you mouse over it.

(if you click on the :pencil: icon it will edit it)

OK, I need to go feed cats and have a few sane hours away from the computer...

Yeah, it’s really almost impossible to notice. And the Channel Purpose isn’t visible unless you delve for it.

(Or you keep the sidebar open all the time - like I do so I can see who's online and the pinned items etc)

Shhhhhh.

@akiva I am more than happy to host whatever solution we come up with

I usually keep the 'mentions and returns' tab open, being a narcissistic bastard.

@gjnoonan sent you an invite for the logs, sorry for the delay

as for self-hosting something (mattermost, our own matrix server, etc). I'm all for it, I believe much more in the longevity of a community effort then in the goodwill of some for-profit entity, but you need some structure around it

Ruby, Python, and other communities, they have several non-profit foundations for handling that kind of stuff

You'd do a fund drive once a year to cover your costs, and you actually pay people to do the ops work and be on-call

I think they all have a larger community, most probably, so it might be easier for them to raise money

OTOH, hardware is cheap

yeah seriously, the amount is not the problem. You make an estimate at the beginning of the year for running a server + x hours of maintenance, we're talking a few thousand USD per year tops. There are more than enough companies+individuals invested in Clojure to get that together

but it is still a big effort that is certainly initially, and always to some extent, carried out by volunteers. That resource is much more scarce.

I’m happy to cover it all to start, and do the server set-up/maintenance. But you’re right in regards to community fundraising

I know @tcrawley was looking at setting something up for clojars, and the like. I will have a catchup with him as I have been away for a few months.

Also I will talk to @alexmiller but of course we need a plan first

Sounds good, keep me in the loop. I'm already running http://clojureverse.org + the logs for this slack, both of which would ideally find a home in such a foundation eventually

So regarding losing control/trusting a for-profit I just asked this: https://matrix.to/#/!HCXfdvrfksxuYnIFiJ:matrix.org/$14743759521233HPJbx:matrix.org

That URL is cool

I think the gist is, rooms are distributed and when our room on http://abc.com gets deleted in some way it can easily live on on other servers (it should have aliases on multiple servers for that)

Nice

That's really cool. Everything about Matrix is so well designed.

@keatondunsford what sucked about mattermost? or why did u say: https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/community-development/p1473999292000060 ?

im just asking because we are contemplating switching from our internal slack to something leaner which is still feature-rich enough

we wouldn't mind paying for slack, but as we are a startup, we always double-question our recurring expenses

im not super satisfied with slack because even its latest version eats half a gig ram and it was even memory leaking before that

Mattermost is totally fine for your use case, but I was just thinking that it wasn’t that much better than Slack to warrant having to coordinate the self-hosting thing.

since we use it for talking about code too, it would be good to have proper syntax highlighting, though that's not critical

but my main worry is losing history...

@keatondunsford well our main problem with slack for using it to host the clojurians is 1. user count limit 2. price if i understand well. mattermost would solve that problem and it doesn't cost us any features, just some money (which i would also be very happy to contribute too)

@martinklepsch im looking into matrix now too (i just saw u started typing ;)

@onetom I kept myself back 😛

For some of the people I was talking to, that just sounded like a huge risk to deal with considering the importance of this community.

Yeah, if you look up in the earlier discussion, I think doing something like that is doable with a multisig Bitcoin wallet, but we’d have to get enough people on board to manage that who we could trust.

Slack sucks for this Clojurians use case so we’ve got to figure something out.

I just got so much value out of Clojurians I feel like I must care about its maintenance... even if it means I have to read and think about chat clients at 1am... 🙂

Lol exactly. Same

btw, i don't know how people would feel about downtime, but i personally wouldnt care if clojurians were down for 10 minutes every day and for an hour or two every month, so i think such expectations are not too high for maintaining a server ourselves

(im talking about unexpected downtimes)

but do i understand well that the major issue with self-hosting is the matter of trust somehow?

that'd be my concern at least. If it's just some "random" person hosting it, it's not a very good situation

One current example - https://www.refheap.com/ - was useful, has active links in project docs, not working right now.

And http://conj.io — very useful but was offline for a while and the community missed it.

When you have 7,000+ users in all TZs around the world, you need to be careful to not underestimate how frustrating any downtime becomes. Even if you think you’re scheduling maintenance when "no one" is using the system, the global community means some people are.

I was even paying for http://conj.io for like half a year

I paid for http://clojureatlas.com but it seems not enough people did and that became free and then sort of got abandoned.

With the infrastructure I would put in place there wouldn’t be any downtime, that’s my job LOL

we would obviously get it all mapped out properly