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#community-development
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2016-01-12
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meow00:01:34

hi maria

maria00:01:04

@meow: Not really sure what you mean with "female perspectives are being adequately addressed"? Do you mean how we can make sure to be a welcoming community to women and all different types of people in general?

meow00:01:53

and I'm not sure if we have any females active in our efforts to date

meow00:01:49

and I'm reaching out to other representatives of diversity

meow00:01:50

@maria we are building a new system

maria00:01:08

so this channel is at the moment mainly about finding an alternative to slack, right?

meow00:01:22

and one is also being built

meow00:01:55

#C0J20813K

meow00:01:21

to address #C0J5T38VB

maria00:01:48

wow, that’s cool

meow00:01:12

and I'm a crude, sarcastic, 50-year old, white male

meow00:01:26

often inappropriate

meow00:01:47

who likes reactji performance art

maria00:01:24

mhh, haven’t noticed anything inappropriate yet, but then I also don’t read everything that is written here

maria00:01:55

I think the tone here on slack has been very respectful and having a CoC is maybe also helping

maria00:01:50

and if that’s the same on the new platform, that should be a good start

maria00:01:19

I’m no expert on diversity though 😉

meow00:01:39

that's ok

jeremys00:01:26

@meow: You can’t be as sarcastic as we french are 😏

meow00:01:39

je ne sais pas

jeremys00:01:14

c’est ce que j’au souvent entendu dire par des personnes d’autre pays...

meow00:01:56

I displayed the entirety of my understanding of French in my previous post

eyelidlessness00:01:30

i’m a bit confused about the nature of this channel and the appropriate topic(s). is this supposed to be about building a slack alternative (developing the technology for the clojure community to use for communication) or about broader development of the human clojure community?

jeremys00:01:40

more seriously I think I wouldn’t worry too much yet about problem in a futur chat

jeremys00:01:30

The clojure community seems to be always well behaved and respectfull simple_smile

meow00:01:02

and we want to make sure that continues

jeremys00:01:23

Anyway that’s quite the project you started good luck!

jaen08:01:37

Oh, it seems that this pythonesque (sorry, had "bring out your dead" ringing out in my head when I've seen that) going around the channels actually worked somewhat D :

agile_geek08:01:57

Re: SlackChat - Can someone explain to me how we assign ourselves to tasks/features using HackPad and how we can track which tasks/features are being worked on and by whom so we can collaborate. I'm a hackpad newbie and more used to Kanban/Agile boards.

meow09:01:09

@jaen: not sure what you mean

agile_geek09:01:18

@meow: cool- I'm going to try and get stuck into writing something tonight at pair programming event in London

meow09:01:26

@jaen: I know what that is, but how does it relate to going around what channels

jaen09:01:06

Oh, I mean you going around channels and asking if people are ready for slackpocalypse ; d

jaen09:01:26

I thought it was funny in a certain way of funny.

meow09:01:27

yeah, I'm nuts

meow09:01:47

you have no idea how much I've been laughing today

jaen09:01:55

I can imagine ; d

jaen09:01:59

jarring sound effect

jaen09:01:02

Gotta love them.

meow09:01:17

@agile_geek: we won't be using hackpad to manage tasks

meow09:01:09

hackpad is just a shared doc with comments

meow09:01:35

so it just has the overview of the problem and concept and issues and so forth

meow09:01:54

the features set isn't meant to be complete - just a way to get the ball rolling

meow09:01:06

what do you need for this meeting

meow09:01:10

how can I help

rm09:01:25

btw, what's so strange with mattermost license?

agile_geek09:01:08

@meow: just need a coding task that needs doing and we will pair up and crack on. Even if it's just a spike to test approach/validity. Do we have a github repo for project?

meow10:01:15

@rm: not sure myself and can't remember who made that comment - should have the author of the comment visible on the hackpad doc

meow10:01:48

@agile_geek: for the overall effort, no

meow10:01:55

for #C0J20813K yes

meow10:01:17

but those are being worked on live as the devs work on it and I drive them crazy with all my posts and tagging and reactji performance art

meow10:01:01

@rafd: do you want to try to do something with @agile_geek or is it too soon?

meow10:01:18

@agile_geek: the code is here if you want to look at it: https://github.com/braidchat/braid

agile_geek10:01:41

@meow: @rafd: Not sure I understand where #C0J20813K fits in this? Are we taking it as the starting point for replacing Slack?

meow10:01:52

right now it is om and hasn't been converted to om.next yet

meow10:01:48

it is an option that is being developed and they hope that it will be selected by the community but that is up to the community

meow10:01:06

and I already committed to not voting so I have no say in it

meow10:01:25

I will work with anyone that is developing a concept

meow10:01:44

this channel and the hackpad doc reflects the needs

meow10:01:59

of the community, and concerns and so forth

meow10:01:21

mattermost is also an option and there is a test setup of it

meow10:01:37

it is much like slack and is quite nice, but written in goland

agile_geek10:01:53

Happy to take a look at #C0J20813K and maybe contribute but as pair programming event is mixed ability group doubt we will do much in 2 hours but something to look at

meow10:01:01

I can give an invite to anyone who wants to look at mattermost

meow10:01:41

honestly don't know what to tell you

agile_geek10:01:23

no problem it's something substantial to consider for pairing on rather than toy / algorithmic problems.

meow10:01:17

yeah, if you want to pair program that would be hard - if you just want to get on the system and play around for 2 hours we could probably make that happen

meow10:01:11

you could play with my polygon mesh lib or l-system or cellular automata libs

meow10:01:45

conway game of life and all that

meow10:01:07

I need a custom file writer to produces X3D xml files because clojure data.xml isn't lazy enough and I run out of memory at that step

meow10:01:41

so I have a writer, but it can't produce truly huge files

meow10:01:54

can only get about a million polygons

meow10:01:10

X3D is a horrible file format

meow10:01:35

oops - way off-topic - so sorry everyone

mitchelkuijpers13:01:30

I had a small hackathon a few weeks ago where we created a chatclient with electron, clojure and clojurescript. We also had a UX designer working on it and the code is open source (the client is here: https://github.com/stil4m/project-typo/tree/master/client) GitHub stil4m/project-typo project-typo - A chat client written in Clojure(Script) ​[11:50] https://www.dropbox.com/s/wr5ba5r22fzyh0p/Screenshot%202016-01-12%2011.49.59.png?dl=0 ​[11:50] It was very basic but some stuff could be reused (maybe) ​[11:51] https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/uploads-eu.hipchat.com/31232/633885/J3R6I3izCbgGprb/Screen%20Shot%202015-12-19%20at%2020.50.27.png (178KB)

meow13:01:17

@mitchelkuijpers: awesome - thank you for sharing

meow13:01:40

can you add to the hackpad doc somehow so we don't lose that

mitchelkuijpers13:01:58

yes I will this evening

mitchelkuijpers13:01:04

I will get the designs also

agile_geek13:01:44

Hey, it's Craig McCraig of the clan McCraig!

mccraigmccraig13:01:40

@agile_geek: argh the capitalz my eyez

jaredly16:01:08

I just added a page to the hackpad https://hackpad.com/Chatroom-vs-....-8jJD3sxtRAf Chatroom vs …, discussing slack, braid, and chaf. "The goal of this page is to discuss "chatroom paradigms." Slack is what we currently have, and we don't want to lose the good things it provides, but several people have expressed the desire for an interface that is better at maintaining separate conversations."

jaredly16:01:44

@rafd @meow etc I’d love to hear your thoughts

martinklepsch16:01:13

In the context of ephemerality (is that a word even?) I see braid (very ephemeral) < slack < chaf (not ephemeral)

rafd16:01:23

thanks for the feedback, I agree with the observations, my aim is to keep improving the Braid model; open to ux concepts and suggestions

meow17:01:16

@jaredly: thanks for posting

meow17:01:31

haven't had a chance to read yet, but it is in the queue

meow17:01:05

which one should I read first, that one or http://www.martinklepsch.org/chaf.html

meow17:01:52

welcome to @eleonore @be9 @rohit and anyone else who has joined recently

meow17:01:23

if anyone feels like they aren't being heard I do apologize and hope you will be patient or speak up

meow17:01:39

we are moving as fast as we can and we all make mistakes

meow17:01:59

please try to not take it personally, or give us a chance to fix things

meow17:01:16

@jaredly: excellent document

meow17:01:36

I couldn't be more pleased

meow17:01:36

how can we experiment with your ideas in a working system

meow17:01:50

should braid be extended to allow/support that

meow17:01:26

@rafd: am I driving you crazy yet

meow17:01:38

you guys need to push back if I cross a line

meow17:01:46

otherwise I will keep pushing and pushing

meow17:01:36

@jamesnvc: am I driving you crazy

meow17:01:57

how do we add more developers to the project

meow17:01:04

do we add more developers

meow17:01:11

how do we succeed

meow17:01:16

what is success

meow17:01:25

we can do better

juhoteperi18:01:18

@martinklepsch: Have you used Flowdock? I think it is worth checking as one example of threaded discussion.

mitchelkuijpers19:01:06

@meow: Where do you want the UI mockups?

cfleming19:01:05

Does it use xodus? simple_smile

mitchelkuijpers19:01:30

@cfleming: No couchdb actually, but mostly because we wanted to try it

mitchelkuijpers19:01:59

@cfleming: But we are still using Xodus for the wallboards 😄

cfleming19:01:31

@mitchelkuijpers: Looks nice, very clean.

mitchelkuijpers19:01:47

We have already written the css for this with basscss

mitchelkuijpers19:01:53

So we wrote very little css 😛

mitchelkuijpers19:01:21

But I have no idea where to put it on hackpad

mitchelkuijpers19:01:34

@cfleming: I will tell our UX designer that you like it 😉

jaen19:01:40

I like more dark-dark interfaces, but as far as light UIs look it's indeed pretty nice.

mitchelkuijpers19:01:28

We could always make themes, I also like dark themes more

meow19:01:07

where do we want them

meow19:01:16

wherever you want to put them

meow19:01:21

any suggestions

meow19:01:45

someone just did a great hackpad page

meow19:01:48

who was that

meow19:01:55

@jaredly: was that you

mitchelkuijpers19:01:32

I put it somewhere on there already

mitchelkuijpers19:01:37

Feel free to comment edit whatever

meow19:01:01

oh, cool, ok

mitchelkuijpers19:01:48

If you have a better title please edit it. I also see a discussion about exploring other options because these mockups are for a really “traditional” chat application

martinklepsch19:01:51

@mitchelkuijpers: did you use Couch for this?

martinklepsch19:01:10

How did it go?

mitchelkuijpers19:01:21

We actually started with rethinkdb but we had random freezes and then we went on with couch. But is actually very nice for a chat application you can listen for changes and you just write some functions to group them by room. And you can even write some reducers to show for example the amount of messages per room

mitchelkuijpers19:01:55

We first tried it with https://github.com/clojure-clutch/clutch but it was way easier to just do some http calls ourselves

mitchelkuijpers19:01:21

Mainly because clutch is not very active anymore

martinklepsch19:01:00

Cool! I was wondering about rethinkdb vs couch actually. I also like the fact that couch has master master replication + there are a few couch people here in Berlin :)

martinklepsch19:01:43

I remember couch providing some user/auth stuff - did you make use of that @mitchelkuijpers

mitchelkuijpers19:01:41

No we didn’t really get to that part to be honest because we rewrote the server in the middle of weekend to couch 😞 but it definitely has that

mitchelkuijpers19:01:42

But couch is very nice, the only thing that is awkward is writing javascript functions to do stuff on the db when you are writing clojure(script) but I don’t find this such big deal

mitchelkuijpers19:01:06

But the biggest strength of couch is writing views on your data @martinklepsch

jaen20:01:10

@mitchelkuijpers: did you evaluate couchbase vs couchdb?

mitchelkuijpers20:01:07

@jaen: to be honest we didn't

dominicm20:01:53

I know you guys have decided on building a slack clone, buuut, have you looked at mattermost?

jaen20:01:53

I see. People say it solved problems like REST protocol being relatively slow or having to write map/reduce beforehand and was curious if you had any hands-on experience with that.

dominicm20:01:00

I didn't see it mentioned on the hackpad.

meow20:01:12

@dominicm: we set it up and tested it

meow20:01:18

it's pretty nice

dominicm20:01:39

@meow: Any blocks to using it do you think? It would save a lot of effort 😛

meow20:01:45

I guess nobody has felt compelled to document anything about it yet

meow20:01:12

it falls short in some ways

meow20:01:30

it is likely a contender as an alternative to slack

meow20:01:49

right now we probably are most serious about mattermost and braid

meow20:01:06

would you like an invite to mattermost

dominicm20:01:43

I've updated this a little: https://hackpad.com/Slackpocalypse-GRIaf1RgP5D mostly removing markdown 😜

dominicm20:01:29

I hadn't realised how neat hackpad was.

meow20:01:13

@dominicm: awesome, thanks

donmullen20:01:54

@meow: I think everyone who has streaming access should watch all extended versions of HUMAN.

meow20:01:14

blew me away

meow20:01:57

btw, I've invited some of you to help admin https://github.com/decomplect

meow20:01:11

you should be getting an email from github

meow20:01:31

if you don't want to accept, feel free to decline the offer

meow20:01:44

if anyone else would like to pitch in please let me know

meow20:01:15

that org has some code that I contributed and a mori-fork that will need to be maintained

meow20:01:51

and I have a repo with some devcards and would like to expand their use

meow20:01:05

I think using devcards for tutorials would be cool

meow20:01:28

there is also #C0J9ENAMS

meow20:01:40

and david is ok with this

meow20:01:55

so we have some work to do

meow20:01:17

to support the community and maintain this valuable resource

martinklepsch20:01:46

@juhoteperi: I've never had a chance to use flow dock unfortunately. :( have heard plenty of good things about it wrt threading though

meow21:01:19

what is flow dock

meow21:01:21

ah, cool

manderson21:01:23

thanks @meow ! Seeing lots of good conversation and trying to catch up. Sounds like a cool project.

juhoteperi21:01:16

Flowdock default view is very similar to Slack, but if a message is part of a thread it has color coded badge and the badge can be clicked to view and reply to the thread

meow21:01:37

we have mattermost up and running if anyone wants to look - I can send you an invite PM

meow21:01:52

lots of good discussion took place there

meow21:01:10

and, of course, active work on #C0J20813K is taking place

meow21:01:21

invites available for that as well

meow21:01:47

do we have any other serious contenders that I haven't mentioned

rafd21:01:36

there is the non-braid-clj-client-to-be-maybe

meow21:01:04

who is working on that

meow22:01:49

ok, several more invites sent out for "owners" of https://github.com/decomplect

meow22:01:10

if you haven't been invited and would like to be just let me know

martinklepsch22:01:30

@mitchelkuijpers: how annoying is it to write views in js? 😉 considering rethinkdb just to not have to have this cut

meow22:01:16

mike thompson recommended we look at Fusion with rethinkdb

meow22:01:48

I think it is something they are still working on

meow22:01:56

the rethink folks that is

meow22:01:05

for realtime streaming stuff

meow22:01:39

can't find anything about it

meow22:01:46

might be blowing smoke

meow22:01:50

I have a greater appreciation of that having now subscribed to all 197 slack channels that we are using.

meow22:01:58

I see it now.

meow22:01:24

We can fix that.

meow22:01:13

@dominicm: penny for your thoughts?

dominicm22:01:49

@meow: Sorry, I don't completely understand, what on? 😛

meow23:01:35

any of this

meow23:01:10

are we doing the right thing

meow23:01:19

would you like to help with coding

meow23:01:33

would you like to try out braid

meow23:01:38

I don't know

meow23:01:46

just opening up for discussion

dominicm23:01:55

I think slack is really great, I don't think it's necessarily the best place for the clojurians to reside long-term.

dominicm23:01:59

I think we need to think about timelines pretty sharpish. We're at 5k, and it won't be long before we're under heavy scrutiny for the next community to be kicked off slack.

dominicm23:01:49

Given this, we want to try and migrate users over to the new system as fast as possible.

dominicm23:01:20

I like the idea behind Braid, but I wonder if it's not a little too late. I have no idea if Mattermost & co are too far away from ready for us though.

meow23:01:05

you went through our mattermost setup?

jaredly23:01:50

mattermost has some problems that might be hardish to solve (unread messages don’t work too well, messages don’t always show up), and a variety of things that shouldn’t be too bad (adding reactji, file preview)

dominicm23:01:02

I am wondering about scale with Mattermost. Will it support ~10k users (future proofing)

dominicm23:01:44

I have no idea if it can be distributed/load balanced & such

dominicm23:01:12

Definitely an extremely tough problem.

meow23:01:21

I have a hard time with any system that I can't dogfood.

meow23:01:13

that's why I'm spending so much time living in #C0J20813K - because the devs are continuosly tweaking the system based on how we are using it

meow23:01:27

I keep doing crazy stuff and they keep making it work

meow23:01:58

but they had a great concept and have a great handle on the real goal which is effective communication

meow23:01:29

if we go with something like mattermost, how do we get that kind of environment

meow23:01:35

I don't think we can

dominicm23:01:37

I wonder if #C0702A7SB will find a happy place in there.

meow23:01:45

and I think we lose value because of that

dominicm23:01:54

Yep, that's the big concern with mattermost I think. It's still not quite engineered for us.

meow23:01:09

#C0702A7SB folks have expressed interest in working with us

dominicm23:01:38

Yeah, that's how I stumbled into here. I've been following malcolm's work, and followed his interest.

meow23:01:20

but I can't dedicate myself to doing any coding so I'm dependent on devs from the community who are willing and able to create something

dominicm23:01:51

I wonder if http://matrix.org is flexible enough for us to just build a really nice cljs front-end for.

meow23:01:06

the benefit of working in clojure is that we can live in the system and do continuous integration

meow23:01:29

we would have to have dedicated golang developers to do that with mattermost

meow23:01:47

I know the clojure community

meow23:01:55

I don't know the golang community

meow23:01:05

this is about community, not language

dominicm23:01:09

The golang community decided to use comments for generics.

meow23:01:12

the people I know

dominicm23:01:16

I don't like the golang community much.

meow23:01:17

the people I trust

meow23:01:33

the people I care about

meow23:01:50

the people that I have gotten to know, and have gotten to know me

jaredly23:01:52

@dominicm: not the community, the bdfl

dominicm23:01:34

@jaredly: True. Golang is dictated heavily for Google's needs, it's always felt like it's OSS for adoption purposes more than anything. (to me)

jaredly23:01:54

yeah. although clojure also has an interesting relationship w/ cognitect 😄

dominicm23:01:12

Lisp is a little special. Given that nothing is restricted by it's nature.

dominicm23:01:49

Throw a macro in there, and you'll have a new feature.

dominicm23:01:37

As opposed to Golang, where you really can be very restricted by what the language designers will give you.

dominicm23:01:10

Okay, so... matrix is really cool!

dominicm23:01:33

It's distributed on two levels.

dominicm23:01:59

authentication in oAuth-style (you have an auth provider), so you can create one account, and use it on all your "networks"

dominicm23:01:24

Then channels are distributed, e.g. #matrix:http://matrix.org #C03RZGPG1:http://clojurians.org #C0F2A0MJN:http://clojurians.org

dominicm23:01:33

That actually sounds just like what we need.

dominicm23:01:37

Worth looking into.