quick question guys, im having trouble with the Calva repl & shadow-cljs it seems like the console is hidden from me:: I can only get the result of evulations, ie 2 gives me back 2, but (clojure.pprint/pprint 2), gives me back nil, instead of 2 nil

has anybody ran into this issue before? Thanks! ^_^

is there a way to compile a cljs app into a standalone js file ?

Yes. ‘Optimizations’ compiler key is what you’re looking for.

@slack1224: it's a known issue. The output only goes to the console atm.

@slack1224 @pez well the return value will always be nil since it prints to *out*. if you want the actual result as a string you can use (with-out-str (cljs.pprint/pprint {:foo "bar"}))

is this correct interop? this.userOptions.plotOptions.pie.innerSize -> (.. this -userOptions -plotOptions -pie -innerSize)

does anyone know any examples of well-known consumer facing clojurescript web applications?

I think CircleCI is written almost entirely in Clojure(script) https://github.com/circleci/frontend

is that just the landing page and portal or is there some kind of web tool / webapp also?

The landing page is not ClojureScript, but the web application is mostly ClojureScript

looks like precursor is also. It's actually a pretty cool app, too! https://precursorapp.com/

Whimsical is ClojureScript as well: https://whimsical.com/

Interesting... I wonder if these apps were developed with "hey what would be a natural choice for a product using clojurescript?" or more of a "we want to do this complex workflow app and the only thing that makes sense is clojurescript", or if it was something more organic

does anyone happen to know what lucidchart was written in?

Not sure about Lucidchart, but Precursor was developed by some ex-CircleCI employees who had acquired CLJS experience from working on the CircleCI frontend.

note that CircleCI has moved off ClojureScript as far as I know - from what I understand the team got significantly larger and they wanted to be able to just hire React devs

@goomba you can be effective with most modern tools for UI programming - claims otherwise are lies

ClojureScript / React simply show that functional techniques can be applied to UI programming at scale

so if you and your team prefer FP techniques then ClojureScript is for you

it's like JavaScript vs. TypeScript

there's no evidence that doing it one or another is going to make one bit of difference for any product

you're too modest @dnolen!! I think there's something very special about ClojureScript

thanks, but really it's quite true

programming languages are kind of currency between a team

sometimes there are legitimate technical reasons - but I've rarely found that to be true in narratives people tell

the most powerful story for ClojureScript is the fullstack one

i.e you're doing Clojure on the backend and ClojureScript on the frontend

True. I just found myself in a similar boat to Mr. Hickey... if I had to write one more line of JavaScript I was going to quit and go back to potato farming

and in your mobile apps, and in other JS contexts

if you're sick of the programming language hodge-podge here Clojure(Script) provides an escape

While I agree that "anything can" be done with any client side language, I feel that the full stack synergy you mentioned hasn't been fully explored -- in fact I think we're barely scratching the surface. I'm sure you've checked out Tonsky's Web After Tomorrow blog entry?

I can't think of a single site that's doing that.

I've worked on Clojure(Script) + Datomic projects - lot of fun and sure IMO less complexity due to a unified programming model across all the bits of architecture

but I've also worked on good / bad projects using that stack

Well, the welcome-aboard kit with Clojure(Script) comes with enough rope to hang yourself, if that's the route you want to go, but I appreciate that 🙂

I think the killer missing piece right now is WebWorker-side VDOM diffing

After that it's game over

IMHO

to be honest I don't really think all this super heavy client stuff is all that interesting

😮 😮 😮

there's a sweet spot between client/server

What's up with all this modesty, wisdom, and pragmatism hahaha

and lot of projects make a mess on one end or the other

but really the real complexity is team siloing

i.e. frontend vs. backend

so Clojure(Script) just removes that

but then you still have a lot of problems to solve

yes/no... mm... that's a big problem with Clojure(Script) in general, and I think why teams eventually port their stuff to more accessible aka popular languages that are more copy/paste friendly and require less engineering discipline -- but I have the luxury of being incredibly biased

It's more of a LISP problem than a Clojure(Script) problem

IMO popular languages are about hiring

i.e. your team is so big and there's so much process, siloing is a given

Agreed, 100%

If you hire a Django dev or a Ruby on Rails dev you know what you're getting and everyone speaks the same language.

Kind of like why they went from archers to crossbows back in the middle ages. Doesn't take 20 years to train someone on the crossbow (edit: I have no idea if this is true or not but why let the facts get in the way of a good story...)

I think modern projects look a bit different

you hire a Django Dev and you hire a React dev

and you try to avoid impedance mismatches in frontend / backend

in Clojure - you can often just hire a Clojure dev

and they can cover the architecture

That impedance mismatch, weirdly enough, has been one of the awesomest things about cljs for me in doing full-stack work. It's been a survival tool in large inflexible organizations. Sometimes I can get more done client-side than is possible server-side just due to architectural or framework limitations.

Also oddly enough the nieche of cljs avoids a weird "bikeshedding" problem -- with popular frameworks/languages sometimes devs love to get into weirdly divisive arguments over minutia ... "is this function Pythonic enough?". With cljs in big organizations its, "I don't fully know how it works but darn you're doing a good job of delivering so keep it up"

Anybody else care to hear any more opinionated philosophy? 😛

right, sure - that can work in some places

and Clojure has that benefit too

but I think a wider success story probably needs to attack from a different direction - that's all I'm suggesting

I wonder if that wider success story is possible, or if it's closely tied to the so-far unsolvable riddle of "Quantitatively, what makes for a good developer?"

Probably more like a bhuddist koan though ... I'm not sure a good developer exists in isolation

well we've had more success than I imagined possible for a Lisp - so we'll see 🙂

Indeed. For what it's worth, you and your team have certainly made my life better.

cljs is the only reason i have fun doing side projects... maybe one day i will be able to sneak some into production

I have to say that CLJS makes UI learning an enjoyable experience.

The hot reloading makes the learning fun.

And also the repl.

Indeed. The first time you get that nrepl going and you see your code hot reload -- that's a unique experience to ClojureScript as far as I know.

Of course it took me about 3 years to get the nrepl going but I'm happy I finally got there!

Shadows-cljs made it much simpler

You can do it fully out of the box with deps.edn now

Obviously, having experience in Emacs and coding in Clojure for fun for a few years helped that.

I dunno about deps.edn, but I know shadow-cljs helped me with all the major steps to understand the process to ship a UI.

The biggest issue is only the beginner’s curse of choice.

100% agree

@dnolen how do you see if there are too much work on client or server side? How does that situation arises?

on the server side you have stuff like the old Rails Turbolinks, on the client side you have people just trying to do everything in the client (no pages, etc.)

What does it mean no pages?

that's I mean no real pages

SPA - single page app

Is there a way to transform clojurescript forms (preferably fn) to the most simple form of a javascript function so I could produce a javascript function in isolation? I am asking this because pouchdb takes a simple javascript function as string for its map/reduce approach. I could just write the functions as javascript strings but it would be nicer to be able to have a simple transform (Without CLJ internals)

So SPA are bad?

I think the SPA is tempting because currently setting up a .js file per page like one might normally do in a typical full stack site carries with it a great deal of inertia, and creating reusable libraries while using advanced compilation has a higher barrier to entry than normal js projects

Not necessarily bad just harder to get right

When you have multiple pages you aren't bound by the decisions of other pages, it's just harder to get started

@neo2551 that's not what I'm saying

I'm talking about people writing SPAs with zero value - i.e. it's not a good fit for the problem

@alpox not sure what you mean, ClojureScript functions are JS functions

Ah ok.

means can I port a clojurescript function directly to JavaScript without all the clojurescript machinery

Just wants the "simple function" equivalent

As if mapped by hand

@alpox oh but you need to pass it as a string ... yeah probably simpler to just write the JS

I had to do this with Puppeteer recently - I just wrote those fns in a Closure namespace, ClojureScript makes it easy to load that kind of JS

Hmm I figured as much but I thought I better ask before ruling this possibility out fully. Thanks for the response 🙂

@alpox well issue would be you can't use anything from the ClojureScript std lib anyway - so even if we produce simpler output you would be effectively writing JS - you couldn't use any higher level anything

It's not impossible it just doesn't always make sense. You can advanced compile and specify that you don't want the compiler to munge the name and use the resulting artifact as a native JavaScript function, but to say it's overkill is an understatement

Yes I'd have to strictly stick to the JS world so or so

and by standard lib I mean you can't use keywords, destructuring etc.

you would have to be pretty careful - so it's not really a valuable feature

Right, thanks for making up my mind 🙂

One of the "issues" with cljs is that it doesn't support copy/paste development

(it's not really an issue)

I guess that is an advantage in reality but can be seen as issue by some

But you can't get away with just pasting in code, need to understand the workflow. Higher barrier to entry, but not so much more than webpack I think..?

With #fulcro and cljc you can develop applications that work both with react/JS and fully SSR(JVM) with exact same code. Or something like develop with react/JS (for hotreload) and deploy just with SSR (once SPA will not delivery any extra-value) There is still some missing parts (routing/docs), but is possible.

@goomba Webpack is a showstopper in many ways but most of the JS world uses Webpack only through wrappers like CRA now and have to touch it very rarely

Oh... Maybe I'm a masochist

hi! I'm finding hard to use from clojurescript js libraries where examples are written in ES6, are there any cljs abstractions or libraries for creating classes that extend from other classes, and deal with constructors, super, etc or is just working the prototype chain by hand the current way to go?

there's no sugar currently - though you have macros and can supply your own - perhaps there's a lib out there

I'm getting Failed to execute 'removeChild' on 'Node': The node to be removed is not a child of this node. with the following

[:span.ctx-Button.u-spaceInlineLeftSmall
 (if attaching?
   [:<>  ;; if i replace this with a :span the error goes away
    [cortex/icon-spinner]
    [:span (or attaching-text "Attaching")]]
   (if icon
     [icons/icon :paperclip.fw (or button-text "Attach")]
     (or button-text "Attach")))]

yes, if I had to guess you're using a component that gets replaced by SVG

the icons, specifically

ah you're 100% correct!

in other words, the [cortext/icon-spinner] probably starts out as an <i>... and gets replaced by SVG+XML but this happens outside the control of React, and React is complaining during the teardown phase

so you have two or three options

first is use non-svg icons, second is find react-friendly svg icons, third is you can create a form-3 hiccup component that handles the teardown part of the lifecycle explicitly, and four is you might be able to bundle up those icons with webpack and it might go away (haven't tested the last one though, it's just a hypothesis)

i'm reverting the change back to i tags due to dropped click handlers so I'll get that there.

amazing problem solving. thank you so very much

@dnolen you think that makes sense somethink like the Phoenix Liveview in Clojure world?

@dpsutton haha that error message is burnt into my mind... after hours of tearing my hair out with that problem once I won't soon forget it

well thank you very much for preventing the anguish 🙂

@marciol what is that, link?

@dnolen https://dockyard.com/blog/2018/12/12/phoenix-liveview-interactive-real-time-apps-no-need-to-write-javascript

General question for some kind of React app -- if the application state is the result of the initial state + event1 + event2 + ... + eventN, what do we call that? Event driven? Event sourced? Data driven?

And also, what do we call it if we prefer sticking closer to core clojurescript (as opposed to framework heavy?)

"minimalist" doesn't seem right because sometimes it can be more verbose

Exactly @mkvlr @dnolen that is like a ELM architecture on the server, using websockets to send DOM diffing to browser

looks pretty interesting - perhaps some kind of happy mix possible here for Clojure(Script)

It’d be awesome

Someone is experimenting https://github.com/prepor/liveview-clj @prepor?

It is very interesting. I am curious how applications which are structured this way maintain sanity in the long rung... same problem I run into with a lot of distributed microservices, certain distributed and asyncronous work, and that I used to have with certain SPAs. i.e., imagine you have 10 go-loops that wait for certain events to occur (maybe they're listening to an event log, maybe they get sent things from a pub/sub, who knows) and then take action based on those events. It's very easy to write apps like that... you write one of these processes and it's well defined and it does what it's supposed to. But later they can be hard to maintain because the behavior of the application gets more complex over time and sometimes it's hard to remember why the app is behaving the way it is.

i.e.,

(def proc1
  (go-loop []
   (when (some-event-happens)
     (modify-app-state)
     (recur))))

(def proc2
  (go-loop []
   (when (some-other-event-happens)
     (modify-app-state-again)
     (recur))))

easy to write, sometimes hard to remember what's going on lol

Yes, seems that they are experimented with this approach, so there is nothing in production yet, but seems very interesting. Follows the example that Bruce Tate twitted recently: https://twitter.com/redrapids/status/1164197019289882625