I didn’t think a lot of people used node.js as a backend

I have used node as a backend for 3 years now. I still dig it

@jwm: Clojure programmers don’t very often, one place where it makes some sense is AWS Lambda where the startup time might be an advantage over the JVM.

my friend just compared startup time of ruby’s irb and lein repl hehe

@jwm doesn't make much sense.

Hi I'll be doing some streaming of a graph visualizer with cljs+emacs at http://www.twitch.tv/escherize/ in a minute or two

@jrychter: nice website. wonder what's your experience of dealing with css in writing a component?

@rui.yang: Semantic UI does 99% of that for me. For customizations, I tend to use their theming system (although the npm/gulp build tools are terrible). I try to stick to out-of-the box look as much as I can, to cut costs.

@jrychter: so basically when writing a component, you'll have to choose the css framework. and the component will be tight to the css framework.

@rui.yang: yes, I write everything with one CSS framework in mind. I can't see another way, you'd end up with components trying to be everything to everyone. Plus, I rather like how the resulting code looks like:

[:div.required.field
      [:label "Login"]
      [:div.ui.icon.input
       (ui/autofocused-element :input {:type "text" :value (:login @local-state)
                                       :autoCapitalize "off"

@rui.yang: I used to try to write universal libraries all the time. Now I focus on apps, and when you do that (on a schedule), you tend to choose more practical solutions.

@jrychter: cool, thanks

@dnolen: just saw the om.next video - fabulous talk, congrats

@acron thanks

@dnolen: Had been hanging to see the video on Om Next. I'm currently going through Living Clojure and feel like I am picking up Clojure well and thoroughly enjoy it and the community. I'd love to start playing with Om Next as soon as it is released is there an approximate ETA for it or is that yet to be announced?

@grounded_sage: maybe by end of summer? But not sure. There’s no rush on my end. There’s a lot of little design details to get right.

I'm also feeling like I am partially at a crossroads. I have purchased some Meteor books and dived into Meteor/JS as my first introduction to programming but upon diving further into Clojure I feel like this is the space to be. I intended on using Meteor to build my start-up, perhaps doing some hybrid stuff, but with DDP and Mongo I'm unsure whether I will end up with more of a headache. Has anyone built a forum with Clojure/Script? as that is essentially half of what my MVP will need and Telescope is an ok implementation.

@dnolen: awesome thanks! I'm just going to helping my partner build her law firm using Clojure for a while to get some experience under my belt with it. Perhaps I will stick with basic ClojureScript for the front end as I wait for Om Next to come out before doing more full on things for her business. Then after that I plan to build my start-up. So will be some time away

@grounded_sage: not aware of anyone specifically building a forum with Clojure(Script)

@grounded_sage: people also love Reagent, it quite nice and does more out of the box

I’m curious to see what the other React bindings end up doing around the Relay/Falcor ideas

Yea I'm pretty excited where things are going. I'm actually finding it easier to learn programming concepts from using Clojure and involving myself in the community.

@grounded_sage I completely agree - getting involved with the community has increased my learning significantly

common_creative: i would definitely argue against meteor (if you need somebody to argue against it anyway!)

i used it in a medium-sized project at the behest of a client last year and hated every minute of it

@acron: coming from having no programming experience at the start of the year to where I am now I am very impressed with what I have achieved with my spare time. Although I spent a lot of time and some money in the JS and Meteor community. It seems that Clojure will give me a 10x investment from what pure JS could give me. JS community seems like a lot of hackers, whereas Clojure is a lot of thinkers.

I wish I'd come to your conclusion 10 years ago...

@comma: I was really invested in Meteor and defending it for some time, but things keep getting messier (more stuff to learn which I have little faith in) which I think is due to the large population of hackers in the JS community in general and the very basis of the language not having been well thought out. The reach is the only benefit I see now.

common_creative: i wouldn’t blame meteor’s shortcoming on anybody but the meteorjs team. javascript has its issues yes, but there are many well thought-out projects, look at react!

@comma: True. Perhaps it is because their scope is too large? They are essentially trying to pull in everything JS has to offer and create a glue that makes it easier to choose what [tech / stack?] to use.

I just noticed that cljs's implementation of the clojure.string library is less forgiving than the clojure version. For example, in clojure you can do something like:

boot.user=> (string/replace :this-thing "-" "")
":thisthing"

In cljs this won't work.

Just wondering if that is by design or if cljs should accept keywords as string function args?

Just noticed that clojuredocs doesn't have a link to the source code for anything but the core library. Bummer.

So clojure does (let [s (.toString s)]

@meow: I would consider that code to be wrong.

Note the ^CharSequence type hint, you are just getting lucky.

@dnolen: Yes. Funny that clojure does that string conversion.

Okay, thanks for the sanity check.

@meow: because http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/CharSequence.html

see the list of known implementing classes

if you’re passing anything that isn’t one of those, it’s just wrong

but hey … dynamic typing! 😉

@dnolen: It is rather curious that the clojure implementation even points out CharSequence in the docstring:

4. When a function is documented to accept a string argument, it
   will take any implementation of the correct *interface* on the
   host platform. In Java, this is CharSequence, which is more
   general than String. In ordinary usage you will almost always
   pass concrete strings. If you are doing something unusual,
   e.g. passing a mutable implementation of CharSequence, then
   thread-safety is your responsibility."

Anyhow, to modify a keyword in cljs I should explicitly call name, modify it, then (keyword result-string) back into a keyword.

@meow: yep

cool

Is calling directly the clj-form instead of using the match macro from core.match a bad idea?

@kongeor: it’s not a part of the docs or a really a public thing, so use at your own risk.

In an effort to find a good excuse to learn cljs (since I can't quite learn it through my place of work yet 😠), I'm going to be spending some time over the next couple of months to create a couple of libs that the cljs ecosystem currently lacks

If anyone would like to help out I'll be looking for contributors PM me

hey all. how does one approach writing WebWorkers in ClojureScript?

I'm looking to port this little bit of code to CLJS: http://webaudio.github.io/web-audio-api/#a-bitcrusher-node

but am not sure how to approach the fact that the worker is defined in a separate JS file.

I would think that you would build a separate target in cljsbuild (assuming cljsbuild) and then load that file from your main JS.

^

ah ok.... not as cozy of a solution as i'd hoped but needs must

do you think there no way to make the AudioWorker use functions/code defined in the same file?

@triss seen https://github.com/MarcoPolo/servant ?

cheers gtrak. I'l take a look.

@dnolen: Thanks. If there a clean approach to load the patterns from a config file or a db ?

@kongeor: there is not, not really a use case that was ever considered

@kongeor: if it’s the only way to do what you want, then go for it, but note that stuff might change and you may have to change your stuff if you upgrade at some point.

Note that you can send code to execute to webworkers.

@dnolen: and I guess creating a macro that will expand the code from the config data so it can use the match macro is not possible either, right ?

@comma: I’ve got a close friend who I’m learning to code with who is enamoured with meteor. Could I hear some more of your thoughts about what you didn’t (and maybe what you did) like about it?

Maybe to keep it relevant, in comparison with cljs :)

sooheon: my main issue with it was the lack of modules or imports or anything of the like so there’s just a massive reliance on making everything global, your state, your vendor libraries, etc

even cljs is getting npm modules working right now but meteorjs won’t let you use them at all

so you end up with hacks like https://atmospherejs.com/cosmos/browserify

can't do js without hacks

also i couldn’t get over having server and client directives in the same file with a simple if (isServer()) block to tell what worked where

I see. I guess at the point of us both being beginners with small projects, those issues are harder to see

@sooheon: for sure, but when those issues do crop up, you will have a big "a-ha" moment

my advice to beginners is to learn those lessons on your own, then youll understand and appreciate thinks like proper modular composition

module*

Yeah trying to get there for sure :)

can anyone point me at a cljs project that creates and consumes WebWorkers?

I'm not sue how to set up m project.clj or how to use cljs namespaces along side them

OMFG http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/blink?view=revision&revision=198504

At last !

What is that language "Clo*s*ureScript"?

Should this have "cljc" extension included? Currently only "cljs"

low hanging fruit, somebody should send a pull request to CodeMirror

Yeah somebody just commented on it on the code review page.

good, still progress!

Hey everyone. Is there any way I can access stuff that's in the cljs.* namespaces from regular clojure code?

Forgive me if this is a silly question

clojure/clojurescript is in the project's dependencies

hmmm

But if try to require cljs.reader in a clj file, I get a class not found

not sure you can do that.

yeah, you can’t do that.

cljs => javascript and clj => java

Ok, thanks

you can write code that is shared between cljs and clj, tho.

if you are in clojure 1.7, have a look at cljc

if you are in an older version, have a look at cljx

With the new reader conditionals?

you can’t share libraries that depend on the host

Ok. That might work. Will have to experiment

Thanks

@malabarba: Clojure will only load .clj and .cljc, ClojureScript will only load .cljs and .cljc

Ok.

And does anyone here know about piggieback

what do you want to do?

I'm trying to make cider's debugger work with clojurescript,

But everything in cider are clj files

oh, there is a way to start a cljs repl with cider. I have not been successful with that.

And it works with clojurescript thanks to piggieback

I use figwheel’s repl to prototype

and if it works, then I write it to a file.

kind of crude, but works for me.

and forces me to keep all my functions small

Hehe

It took me a couple of tries, but I've managers to start a repl

my problem is how to expose clojurescript internals

To cider

@malabarba: take a look at gtrak/cljs-tooling

that's how cider does it

@gtrak does it have a way to access vars from cljs namespaces?

yes, it uses the cljs AST, grabbing it from piggieback

look at cider-nrepl

https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl/blob/master/src/cider/nrepl/middleware/util/cljs.clj

it's just a big data structure, cljs-tooling just uses core functions on it

how does the clojure debugger work?

@gtrak I've been looking at that file, but clearly I missed something. ☺️

i think it's gotten more complicated since the first cut

Cider debug wraps around the nrepl eval op, and it adds a reader macro to the *data-readers* map

i think piggieback intercepts eval

IIUC, in order to work with cljs, I need to use the tag-table map instead.

But that map is in the cljs.reader namespace

https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback/blob/master/src/cemerick/piggieback.clj#L289

sounds hard

Oh, you think it intercepts eval before anything else can be done on it?

yes

well, that's what that line i linked is doing

also, cljs doesn't have threads, so how are you going to pause execution?

One thing at a time :-)

So it doesn't have futures either?

no

Oh no. I mean promises

no

Ok

it does have core.async

but compiling functions into core.async sounds nontrivial

Well, it has a way of asking for input, right?

you'll have to be more specific

it can fire callbacks on events

I mean like the read function

Reading from *in*

if you've ever used any JS apis, they're callback based.

you don't read from a stream.

That should be even better

So you don't have threads but you have async?

correct

Hey, sounds a lot like emacs

:-)

I'm just confused how you're going to block a function in a single-threaded language

and still be able to respond to input

No, I can't block, but I think I can rewrite the blocking logic in terms of callbacks.

yea, that sounds possible

Will be a ton of work though

But it won't be the first time I've done this :-P

it also sounds like it would be highly coupled to piggieback

but i guess that's the only way to use cider and cljs right now

I would love to maximize code portability across current and future clj impls, like if clj-in-clj ever happens, and everything shares a tools.analyzer-AST, then I only have to write autocompletion once.

@gtrak sorry, something pulled me away.

CLJS tooling is an urgent matter

Yes, it would be very coupled to piggieback, and AFAIK that's the only way to use cider with cljs

However, we've been meaning to improve the cider cljs experience

So if you know of a better way to integrate nrepl middleware with cljs, please share :-)

"We've been meaning" = it's one of the top priorities now.

nothing specific right now, I haven't hacked on it in a while

but in general and long-term, I think it'd be awesome to have an nrepl server hosted in cljs.

Yes. The current setup just feels kinda like a hack

Not cider, just cljs repls in general

@malabarba: not sure what you mean, ClojureScript REPLs work more or less like the Clojure REPL

the state of ClojureScript REPLs outside of the standard ones is something I now refuse to touch

so is nrepl considered second-class?

for me

I just use a plain REPL for all my work

just faster and more predictable

@dnolen I guess I got that impression from having to start a cljs rhino repl inside a clj repl. But maybe that's not the orthodox way?

@malabarba: I take it you have not read the Quick Start

I did actually

☺️

you do need a script to kick off a ClojureScript REPL but that’s because we don’t know what REPL you want to use.

Node.js, Browser, Rhino, Nashorn

they cannot be configured in the same way

no magic pixie dust is going to change this

I see

i don't care much about the details of the protocol, but nrepl provides valuable hooks for extension, using eval for everything tooling-related is a non-starter.

but beyond this ClojureScript REPLs specifically mimic Clojure REPL behavior

Ah yes

It's very well integrated

so I would be happy with standard repls if we could build on top of them

in a sane way

In a lot of ways it's impressive how well it's integrated

being able to push that code down into server level means editors have less work to do to implement common functionality, vim-fireplace is already a client to cider-nrepl for some things. So even though it's possible to have a workflow without it (I write coffeescript in emacs with no repl), cider is one of the things I really miss about clojure.

to be honest I’m not a huge fan of nREPL I think it does too much and adds too much indirection. I’m personally excited to see how Socket REPL ends up if it goes anywhere. If it does we’ll replicate that in ClojureScript.

I think tooling can then decide to support both nREPL & Socket REPL

I think ClojureScript Cider integration via Socket REPL will be way simpler.

i'd be happy to target socket repl if it can be used that way

the middlewares themselves are a small part of cider-nrepl, just being able to pass data around is enough.

Yes, socket repl has come up repeatedly

Hope it ends well

cider can probably support messages with evaling a reader literal or something similar.

it seems like the socket-repl design will be enough, negotiating multiple connections sounds like the hard part.

hi, quick question, what's the name of that Clojurescript library that's a very thin layer on React?

quiescent

thanks, I was unable to find/spell it's name, hehe

neato https://twitter.com/bhauman/status/618878316729270272

om next video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByNs9TG30E8

(i checked the backlog and didn't find it)

@locks: I posted it yesterday, but that’s ok

it’s a good talk!

it really is a great talk

Om next looks really nice! Love the datomic pull api like queries

did anybody find the referenced gregor kiczales talk?

Has anyone tried fiddling with reagent native demo? I can't seem to get the packager/lein to add more files other than core.cljs