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#clojurebridge
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2016-09-09
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johnppatterson16:09:03

Quick question for the ClojureBridge community here. We're having discussions over at the F# software foundation slack about programs for underrepresented tech groups and I brought up the ClojureBridge project. I'm looking over the documents for organizing in the ClojureBridge repo, and I see the resource on a guide to men's attendance. What's the general consensus on coaches/organizers being men? It seems like that is less than ideal, obviously, but in certain areas where programmers, let alone functional programmers, are a rare breed, it seems unavoidable matter of statistics. Any anecdotes about what ClojureBridge groups have done to solve this problem?

plexus18:09:29

it is quite common to still have men as coaches/organizers, but there are several things you can do to make the most of it

plexus18:09:06

if you know women in your community that could coach, encourage them do to so, and if more coaches apply than needed then give preference to the women

plexus18:09:11

if you have women on the organizer team then let them be on stage as much as possible, e.g. to do the introduction, make sure the men are prepared to take a back seat and be a bit more quiet than they usually might be

plexus18:09:05

if you keep organizing workshops somewhat regularly, and cultivate your community with e.g. a project group, then after a year or two you'll have former attendees that are able to coach

plexus18:09:20

if you have the budget you can even invite people to coach and/or come and do a lightning talk. We (Berlin) have considered inviting women from London, we've been lucky so far with sponsorship so we can afford to pay for a low-cost carrier

plexus18:09:39

in smaller communities you might have to work with what you have, which might be just a handful of men. In that case at least make sure everyone is clued up

johnppatterson18:09:00

I figured that gradual evolution of the group from male-lead to non-majority group lead by way of the students would be the answer. Are there good examples of this being a successful tactic? My worry is that it might be difficult to gain traction for a workshop for minorities led by members of a majority group. It seems like it might potentially come across as insincere, or abrasive for people who might already be uncomfortable with learning programming in a group setting. What we could do to work towards making a handful of men as welcoming as possible for this sort of workshop?

bridget19:09:18

plexus' suggestions are great and what I have always heard/given as tactical advice on this subject.

bridget19:09:18

I like the way you're thinking, though, @johnppatterson. I think there are some really big, important questions at the root of this. What's going on when a group of guys need to impart their technology to people in marginalized groups? What's going on when there is an established new technology and there are no/almost no people from marginalized groups involved yet? Did anyone from a marginalized group ask for a workshop? If people from marginalized groups take your workshops, what is that going to do for them? Will it help them get a job? Will it grow their career?

bridget19:09:25

I could go on and on. 🙂 But I have to say that when I start asking myself those questions about related efforts that I have been involved in, I come up with some answers that make me feel very, very uncomfortable.

johnppatterson19:09:41

I could certainly see similar efforts having a more jingoistic drive to them than they realize. That the project could become (or be initially) about injecting one's technologies/opinions where it hasn't necessarily been asked for or will be useful, and could be about using marginalized groups as a vector for their own platform instead of providing themselves as a means to other's ends. The answer could be: don't try to force what isn't naturally happening, but I also know that in places that are want of diversity, if a local group is not vocal about a learning space like ClojureBridge, I don't think many people would think to ask of something like ClojureBridge.

bridget19:09:30

Yeah, it's complicated. All of the ClojureBridge workshops I have been involved in have been really great, really fun experiences. And it has definitely had a measurable effect on the number of women at Clojure events, at the very least.

bridget19:09:26

I'm heartened to see that you are thinking a lot about these kinds of issues. I bet that means you'll come up with a good approach.

bridget19:09:19

If you decide to go the *Bridge route, there is an organization called Bridge Foundry that helps them get going. It's the parent organization of RailsBridge.

johnppatterson20:09:12

Neato, I'll check it out and pass it on over at the F# foundation. Someone came into the foundation channel and asked about resources for minority developers, and I had heard of ClojureBridge before, but I didn't realize it was part of a bigger project as well. For most of the F# community I don't think this will be as big of a concern. There are some vocal, passionate, and awesome women doing F# and actively involved in the community, but I know they also tend to be clustered in areas like San Francisco or Seattle where there's a large development community. Remote locales present an interesting set of challenges for community outreach, let alone proactive outreach for marginalized groups.

bridget20:09:42

Yep! totally. Same thing has been an issue for ClojureBridge. My favorite case is Minneapolis, which is hardly a tech hub, but has had something like 4-5 workshops.

Alex Miller (Clojure team)20:09:38

@johnppatterson off the top of my head I’m aware of Rachel Reese and Donna Malayeri from F# stuff (although maybe Donna is not involved anymore, not sure), although you probably are familiar with both.

johnppatterson20:09:39

I'm not familiar. Fairly new to the F# community at large myself, so I'm still learning all the faces and names. The .NET Fringe conference in Portland a couple months back was my first introduction to the people behind the language.

Alex Miller (Clojure team)20:09:37

Well Rachel and Donna are both awesome, so maybe they would point you to other great people/resources

Alex Miller (Clojure team)20:09:35

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~donna/ - Donna worked on some part of the F# team at one point

johnppatterson20:09:51

Cool deal. It also seems that Rachel is doing a lot of work to spearhead education and community activities around F#. a mutual contact introduced me to Rachel as someone willing to lend a hand at getting an FSharpBridge type of grass roots program started. I'll talk to her some more and see where she weighs in on the whole thing. Thanks @alexmiller and @bridget !

Alex Miller (Clojure team)20:09:09

Yes, I think Rachel would be a great person to talk to