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morning... made it back onto slack...


I’m sorry @thomas you’ll have to heckle me via Zoom or Skype now 😞


😞 indeed...


would you mind if I do it here? @jasonbell


You know I wouldn’t have it any other way @thomas, and Jade wouldn’t have wanted it either 🙂


Why do you refer to yourself in the 3rd person Jade?


@yogidevbear We really need to have a sit down again, just so I can explain it slowly.

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Actually I’ll write a blog post….. it’s a fitting tribute to ClojureX and SM .

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for LDN confs, we have XT20 happening next year It's not a solidly focused Clojure conf like ClojureX, but it's something 🙂

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more details to follow


@jonpither - I have bought my ticket; was not going to miss XT20... 😉


From looking at that website it appears to be some sort of steampunk cosplay thing?

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Apologies if Alastair Taylor (recruiter) has been sending folks unsolicited DMs about his job opening. He'd already been cautioned for posting his job ad in both #jobs and #jobs-discuss He has been deactivated. Why are so many recruiters so clueless about community etiquette? 😞


Thanks :thumbsup:


They'd rather take the risk, on the hope of scoring that commission


man I really don't like recruiters


I like them less and less, the more I interact with them. I've known a handful of good ones across my near-four decades of IT but they are depressingly rare. Mike Dearing in the UK was one of the ones I loved working with, back in the 90's.


good ones are like gold dust


and yes, I've dealt with many in my years within the "industry"


I see them just as glorified telephonists

Ben Hammond16:11:35

god that fintech company sounds terrifying > We are building the first digital bank for friends. A bank that will intuitively connect your personal finances and all the people you interact with, making money as social as your life.

Ben Hammond16:11:42

how to lose friends

Ben Hammond16:11:51

and alienate people

Ben Hammond16:11:20

its a pitching to desperate Venture Capitalists kind of spiel

Ben Hammond16:11:15

did anyone see the Monzo report on Watchdog the other week thought that was interesting

Ben Hammond16:11:45

sounded like they were having problems scaling up, and would rather alienate the customers than the banking regulator

Ben Hammond16:11:59

which is understandable

Wes Hall17:11:09

I'm not directly affiliated with them, but always have to shout out recworks as the good guys in a sea of pretty bad guys when it comes to recruiters.


@ben.hammond << When you see that you can understand why Monzo have scaling problems 🙂

Wes Hall17:11:59

What the utter fuck?!

Wes Hall17:11:15

They really drunk the microservices koolaid then?


microservices FTW!

Ben Hammond17:11:48

thought I saw a face in that graph

Wes Hall17:11:53

Microservices = "The network is the least reliable part of any computing infrastructure and we are not relying on it enough"


They had an almighty cluster fork with Cassandra too

Ben Hammond17:11:59

kinda like BarbaBravo

Ben Hammond17:11:18

well, it works for NetFlix


But that's nanoservices, not microservices 😉

Ben Hammond17:11:36

but they can afford to drop a few packets here and there

Ben Hammond17:11:06

and noone minds too much

Ben Hammond17:11:11

which is not true for a bank

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If you add enough microservices the network begins to take the shape of a neural network. Thus the individual microservices adapt in real-time. The network being unreliable just acts as a form of dropout.

Wes Hall17:11:33

To be honest, I suspect it's not really a great idea though. It might work for them in the sense that they can make it work, but a lot of me just thinks it is a way to absolutely enforce decoupling by making sure you really decouple stuff.

Wes Hall17:11:19

"You can't couple these two services if they are at the opposite end of the data centre!!"


Pretty sure I read somewhere that there is meant to be a blog post to accompany that image above at some point

Ben Hammond17:11:31

last banking client I had were obsessed with Toyotaa just-in-time manufacture


Will probably give a lot more context

Ben Hammond17:11:47

still don't see how that is applicable to bespoke Clojure development

Ben Hammond17:11:21

and they hadn't noticed the Toyota sheen has dulled somewhat recently

Wes Hall17:11:37

map service, reduce service, conj service...


bit service

Wes Hall17:11:34

Oh, everybody on the management side of agile worships Toyota. I am not even sure if it is the real Toyota, more like some imaginary, utopian Toyota.

Ben Hammond17:11:05

and we're not making pickup trucks

Wes Hall17:11:05

When certified scrum trainers die, they go to Toyota 🙂

Ben Hammond17:11:36

oh they get their parts recycled

Wes Hall17:11:17

At eBay we used to have this, "stop the presses" thing which was apparently a "Toyota innovation". It was essentially a veto over anybody doing anything, so we could have a meeting. If somebody spotted some kind of inefficiency and improvement they could call a "stop the presses" and everybody would have to stop and discuss how it could be solved. Pretty soon it was these interruptions that were the biggest efficiency problem.

Wes Hall17:11:18

Don't get me wrong, I actually loved working there, but there was definitely some mad stuff.

Wes Hall17:11:07

Also it was in Amsterdam, where... it is apparently entirely normal for people to just pack up and FO half way through a meeting if they are getting bored. In some ways kind of cool, but really takes a bit of getting used to.

Wes Hall17:11:48

I don't think that was Toyota though, just mad Dutch shenanigans.

Alex Young17:11:05

I've come across that being called the "law of two feet" - not Toyota, but also not uncommon

Wes Hall17:11:32

It's actually quite a good idea. It does force you keep meetings short, relevant and with the right people in attendance (rather than inviting everybody under some social anxiety that somebody might feel, 'snubbed'). It's just really odd to experience it the first few times if you are not used to it.


I can't comment on that. Honest Gov'


You have to use the correct Japanese term for your lean manufacturing shenanigans


It's 'andon' for stopping the production line

Wes Hall17:11:15

@conor.p.farrell I did not know this. It is entirely possible somebody used that phrase but it didn't stick in my head.


Until we all use the correct words, communication is inefficient.

Wes Hall17:11:48

Now I am learning lots of new Japanese words

Wes Hall17:11:45

...ok, already knew those last two


Andon is like 'ang on


Lol, that's exactly what I was thinking >'ang on!