o/

\o

Good Morning!

so

asking for a "friend"

if one was to explore frontend development using Clojure, what's the trend? Reagent?

this "friend" is a backend developer who is very put off by frontend shenanighans, but willing to try something "new" provided it doesn't mean spinning up a bazillion different stacks just to do something nice 🙂

reagent/re-frame is a safe choice for a clojure dev. I’d recommend shadow-cljs for doing the cljs building, eliminates a bunch of pain points and shouldn’t mean spinning up a bazillion different stacks

personally imo the exciting edge is React itself - concurrent mode, suspense, hooks etc. If you want to use that, then the library hx makes it easier to interop

hx library?

yep - this one https://github.com/Lokeh/hx

it does a lot less than reagent et al, with the intention that you interop more directly with react

thank you! 🙂

My "friend" will investigate

😂

has your “friend” got a project in mind

I'll ask 🙂

morning

Morning

Morning!

Another beautiful day in the Clojureverse

+1 for shadow-cljs @dharrigan - so much better

thanks!

My problem with shadow is that it doesn't integrate at all into the JVM.

It's a separate process, with a separate JVM. Which means I can't just piggieback.

I spent some time looking into react/cljs frameworks… and developed workarounds to write isomorphic clojure(script) with SSR. My current feeling is that reagent (and consequently reframe) will eventually be obsoleted by smaller libraries, one of which might be just react itself. The biggest work (I’d like to see done here) is to have an isomorphic hiccup dialect, that supports something like reagent flavoured hiccup. There are lots of hiccup dialects, but none that I have found that are properly isomorphic to clojure rendered HTML and CLJS backed react components. I think fulcro might do this, but fulcro incorporates too much of a framework mindset for my liking. My main problem with reframe is that it’s only for SPAs and doesn’t work very well for isomorphic apps with SSR. We’re currently building an isomorphic clojure(script) app which does SSR — but to do so we had to implement a bodge to do it. Essentially we use reagent (not reframe), and wrote a simple reagent-flavoured hiccup interpreter that can isomorphically run reagent cljc components on the server on the JVM. A simpler solution in my mind would be to ditch reagent’s state management, shim react hooks on the server (super trivial), and use an isomorphic lib… then incorporate whatever pattern/system you want for state/flow etc; if you need it.

Incidentally @dominicm’s post is probably the best post that sums up 1/2 of this desire: https://juxt.pro/blog/posts/react-hooks-raw.html

If you don’t need SSR, you can probably just use reframe. We do a lot of work government and therefore have accessibility requirements. And the best way to meet 90% of accessibility requirements is to ship stuff that works without javascript and can work as such from an initial SSR; as it’s much simpler to verify behaviour without having to do full-blown accessibility testing which is very expensive; and even more so if you depend on RIA stuff to make javascript accessible. I suspect we’re probably some of the only people who still make sites that aren’t completely broken without javascript, and that progressively enhance from that point.

Re-frame doesn't exclude SSR though; we render large parts of our frontend app on the server 👍

I'm not down with all the kewl kids thesedays, what is SSR?

Server side rendering

oic

I used Thymeleaf extenstively in the past. Really enjoyed that.

welcome @josh531 👋

@rickmoynihan is the writeup “What react hooks mean for clojurescript” a good place to lookover what you’ve described? Or just part of it?

Definitely only part -author

Yeah it’s more an interesting side note about what I think should be the direction for front end. I wanted to do that stuff, but found I couldn’t because there isn’t an isomorphic implementation of reagent-flavoured hiccup. Though note my requirements are to have an isomorphic app with SSR. If you can do an SPA with only a holding DOM to bootstrap from clientside, then that article is probably all you need, along with (optionally) a clojurescript hiccup implementation.

https://www.acronymfinder.com/Information-Technology/SSR.html

ServerSide Rendering then

(I presume)

Ok, anywhere that’s got a more complete writeup? Or should I just be paying more attention to the chat ;)…

I think it's just speculation 😄

There’s no more complete write up that I’m aware of… except possibly in a few comments on our issue tracker somewhere. It’s mainly something I wish existed. I don’t think I’m the right person to solve it though. I have a work around, that seems good enough for now.

Ok, good to know =)…