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Good Morning Everyone! 🙂


Gone swimming :woman-swimming:


Is that a soy-pumpkin-spice-cinnamon-skinny-latte?


you know it


although these days I feel like oat is getting more love than soy

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I was encouraged to switch by my wife during her pregancy (for some reason!). Now, years later, she's gone back to cow juice and I find I can't stand the taste of milk (too bovine!)


(except in a latte, but then it's a bit sweetened by the frothing process)


other than actual cows, I can't think of anything I would describe as bovine


especially not taste.


Hmm, maybe a steak?


@dharrigan it really tastes strongly of silage after you haven't drunk it for a while, doesn't it ?



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learned something new today... does that mean I can go home now?


yes @thomas, you have my permission to go home now


👋 bye bye


My question is what does this mean in terms of accountability / repercussions (if any)?

Ben Hammond10:09:16

nobody's sure

Ben Hammond10:09:26

> Misleading the Queen in order to further your own political agenda

Ben Hammond10:09:39

does sound like its getting quite close to treason


lol, I was just thinking the same thing


I find it very hard to believe the Queen was misled. She’s not stupid; like everyone else she knew full well what he was doing.

Ben Hammond10:09:13

its just not her job to call him out on it


Agreed. But claiming she was misled is just political positioning.

Ben Hammond10:09:54

er well, its the legal position


Did the supreme court claim she was misled? I’ve not read the full statement yet.

Ben Hammond10:09:37

er, its not quite that form of words


I thought it was just “people said that”

Ben Hammond10:09:23

>This Court has already concluded that the Prime Minister's advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, void and of no effect. This means that the Order in Council to which it led was also unlawful, void and of no effect and should be quashed.

Ben Hammond10:09:41

> The Court is bound to conclude, therefore, that the decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions without reasonable justification.


exactly — the misled bit is just media/political spin.

Ben Hammond10:09:08

which leads to the question > under what circumstances is it okay to present unlawful advice to her majesty?

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anyone got a favourite pattern for associng when a value is non-nil ?


What is this Clojure thing you mention @mccraigmccraig? Pray tell us more and enlighten us.


i'm not sure myself any more @thomas i think it was just finger farts


I think we do all our assoc-ing, merging, updating etc not caring about nils then call a dissoc-nils clean up at the end cc @danstone


(merge {:maybe-stuff :here} (when val {:thing val}) ,,,) Or cond-> or if you already have it medley/assoc-some

Ben Hammond13:09:29

medley/assoc-some gets my vote


but pls copy and paste out of medley rather than depending on the library unless you need more than 3 functions. (tho obviously reference and give credit)


I suppose (if foo (assoc m :foo foo) m) works too


Why? Libraries are made to be used.


they are, but util libraries like this when they get used a lot just end up causing clashes when different versions get required by different libraries. I'd only bring in the lib if I was using a lot of it.


That's true of all libraries, no?


Also, medley is 1.x.x and James doesn't break compatibility lightly


yeah, James is pretty good about these things, but I'd still like to avoid the problems I've had with various google util libraries messing up my classpath. I like when possible to keep my number of dependencies down.


i too would like to have fewer than the 252 (transitive) deps i seem to have atm


I’d prefer to use it as a library dependency for something like medley. It has no deps itself; it’s pretty small and has other functions you’ll likely want to use. The problem with copying the code into your project is, that you can end up with multiple implementations of the same thing. Better to have a single name, for the same thing, especially in a team.

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Google's java libraries is another matter


Clojure libraries are committed to stability.


for some libraries, yes. I'm not sure I'd rely on all libs being like that, and for a reference and bit of copy pasta I'm happy to not always have a dep


Yeah I’d assess the lib first


Another example — I’ve often avoided using core.async; simply because java.util.ConcurrentBlockingQueue was all I needed and was already there; and I only needed it in one place.


Incidentally on the library stability thing… I updated every dependency in 2 clojure web apps which hadn’t been touched in 4 years… and only one app had a breaking change… which was trivially fixed… it was in ring.middleware.session-timeout; and we weren’t actually using sessions; so I just removed it.


So the stability thing is pretty real… though YMMV.


There were probably more than a dozen direct dependencies that had changed. The apps were both pretty small.


I've been bitten by some things before, but that was with alpha libraries


one thing I like about clojure is that it is often easier to copypasta what you want out of a library than in a java library


But then when bugs get fixed you don't benefit from that.


And that's bitten me just as many times.


I think it depends. assoc-some looks pretty easy to see that it is correct and is easy to copypasta. If something becomes less trivial then I'd use the library.


otoh medley doesn't have any transitive deps at all, so i'm happy to add it to my project - it's very unlikely to be the source of any future jar-hell

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I think copypasta may also open you up to licensing issues and grey areas… e.g. if you copy-pasta assoc-some and then tweak the implementation you may be obliged to make that improvement open source… and depending on definitions of terms like “module” it might include other code in your project too. IANAL, and can’t recall the details of the EPL around this; but it seems the licensing position is a lot clearer and easier to audit and manage if you just include the library as a dep.


I'd probably do a pull request up stream. We release our work to our customers under an open source license. It is up to them if they want to distribute that further (as the license isn't gpl 2 or beyond)


Yeah it’s not an issue if the licenses are the same or are compatible


People here feel less pressured by the many eyes of #clojure so they give better answers


that's a good point.


I too am put off asking some questions in #beginners given the large amount of users there


embarressment et.c..


even a master was a noob once


just ask


no one really cares or remembers


(thats my outlook on it)


create a throwaway account


also slack history dies after a week or two


cos its the free version


there’s a bot that records this forever


well then


when you die, your chat log gets sent to your relatives


with embarrassing questions highlighted in yellow

😂 4

my chat log will be me saying morning


i did the mistake of googling my old username that I used when I was significantly younger than now. I’ve said some very silly uninformed things in my young days

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that are now in the permanent record of google and bing


mmm very tricky


just hope you never become famous haha


some twitter nerd will find it etc.


let’s hope no one finds out my old username

Ben Hammond13:09:05

but that's true of everyone


not everyone no


what about older people who havent used the internet that much


yeah, my generation is the first to have all of our teenage blunders recorded for the world to see ad infinitum


The right to be forgotten will eventually be a human right 😂

Ben Hammond13:09:49

you mean the right to be forgotten in your own lifetime


I have used my real name online ever since the early days so my stuff is scattered across several Usenet archives -- and definitely contains some "unusual" stuff but I've been pretty public about everything in my history at all times... Once, a weird guy I knew through an old tech community DM'd me saying he had "uncovered lots of dirt" on me and was going to blackmail me... so I asked how he "uncovered" that stuff and he said it was via search engines so I said "yeah, so it's all public information that anyone can find easily by searching for real name, right?" and he was sort of "um, yeah, I guess... not very blackmailable then, are you..." 🙂

Ben Hammond13:09:35

by definition, growing up means that you change your mind about some things


I’m not so much appalled by my opinions as I am about the general immaturity.

Ben Hammond13:09:23

but its not possible to grow any other way


No no of course you’re right, but that doesn’t make the cringe any more bearable

Ben Hammond13:09:00

I'm embarrassed that I used to shit myself when I was a baby

Ben Hammond13:09:25

and I may start again in 30 years or so


that’s just a consequence of age, but I suppose in some ways social interaction is too.

Ben Hammond14:09:31

it used to be that only close family got to embarrass you by reminiscing about your difficult adolescence

Ben Hammond14:09:55

it is really toxic that the rest of the world can now get in on that

Ben Hammond14:09:36

without the 'oh but we love you anyway' that your family (mostly) implicictly carries

Ben Hammond14:09:18

so really I'm sympathising ... just took a while to get there


but pls copy and paste out of medley rather than depending on the library unless you need more than 3 functions. (tho obviously reference and give credit)


Sometimes I worry about the impeding google takeover. And then other times I'm watching A Tik Tok parody and they recommend me a financial times video.


On that note, I hope your Tuesdays are going as good as mine 😄


I'm sure Boris's Tuesday isn't going as well as he planned...(or hoped!)