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#clojure-uk
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2018-08-22
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thomas07:08:35

good morning!

maleghast09:08:58

Morning Everyone

maleghast09:08:07

@jr0cket - I am using Spacemacs in eVil mode this morning, and I have to say I am loving the experience. BTW, that weird bug I showed you last night was just me being a giant n00b about the thread-first macro; have fixed it once I stopped being so numb. 😉

maleghast09:08:56

In case anyone else is wondering why I am telling @jr0cket about my editor preferences this morning, he ran his Spacemacs tutorial at SkillsMatter last night and it was very instructive 🙂

bananadance 1
mccraigmccraig09:08:01

i love spacemacs too, but holy-mode puhleez

mccraigmccraig09:08:11

i know @thomas, i love that there's a whole new battleground opened up... for completeness someone really needs to create a holy-mode for vim

thomas09:08:36

:rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

thomas09:08:19

Reminds me of two boys at primary school, who had endless discussion about which car was better: Saab or Volvo... and when they finally agreed on something, one of them would start it again on some other topic.

jasonbell09:08:24

I took the red pill and moved to Emacs, can't move back now, it's in my head too much. You should see me switch back to doing Java development in IDEA, so many Emacs keybindings in my code...

dominicm09:08:36

I prefer vim-rsi

rickmoynihan09:08:10

What is holy-mode? Is it just a spacemacs toggle to switch vi keybindings off and use emacs ones?

practicalli_john14:08:22

@rickmoynihan C-z puts the current buffer into an Emacs State if you selected Evil as your default during install. If you choose holy on install, it doesn't install Evil (as it wouldn't be holy anymore)

rickmoynihan15:08:19

As an Emacs user I had a fear of missing out… but looks like it’s only relevant if you use spacemacs; which is what I suspected

mccraigmccraig09:08:19

@rickmoynihan i'm not really sure of what all the differences are - but you get the spacemacs menus from a different key (i use <alt-spc>) and you are in edit-mode all the time as per normal emacs

rickmoynihan09:08:34

I’ve played with Spacemacs a few times and it’s pretty impressive; but my 20 year old Emacs config is too ingrained in my muscle memory to switch

otfrom10:08:57

@mccraigmccraig I'm not sure what the advantages are to a holy-mode spacemacs (why not just your own config or prelude)?

otfrom10:08:01

oh, and morning all

mccraigmccraig10:08:27

@otfrom i declared emacs-config bankruptcy a while back - life is too short for me. i used prelude for a while and liked it, but after seeing @jr0cket and the travelling spacemacs circus i tried spacemacs and didn't go back to prelude - i found spacemacs fitted together better

mccraigmccraig10:08:49

partly because i seem to prefer helm to ido, partly because spacemacs default window-handling is very nice and its dark-theme is great

otfrom10:08:05

I think I've declared emacs bankruptcy a few times in the last 6 years. I tried prelude (and Sam Aaron's stuff). I found that learning someone else's config was too hard (I always had something I wanted to change)

otfrom10:08:14

I'm pretty happy with my use-package related stuff

otfrom10:08:25

and I steal things from other configs I like of course. 🙂

otfrom10:08:39

very few have the org-mode setup I need

otfrom10:08:48

(well, none that I found anyway)

alexlynham10:08:36

my emacs config has been pretty stable since @rickmoynihan helped me iron out the bugs in it a couple of years back... tried spacemacs but it didn't feel as lean(?) idk, it was very much a feeling that it wasn't 100% what felt natural

firthh10:08:44

The biggest reason I like spacemacs rather than just doing it myself is consistency. I can set up a new computer install the same layers and have the same experience without having to store my custom config somewhere like github. It also means I can pair with other people on their computer and have the same experience. The biggest issue I've always had working in emacs is trying to pair

otfrom10:08:51

I try to keep my keybindings vanilla to make pairing easier. The only thing I'm finding I need to do is come up with some terminal/tmate friendly keybindings for paredit

thomas10:08:40

I used emacs a bit in 2003/2004 but never really got the hang of it and never really used it in combination with clj I am afraid.

maleghast10:08:44

Wow, I did not expect this much discussion, though on reflection who am I kidding..? 😉

maleghast10:08:21

I have learned a tiny bit of "holy-mode", using Emacs with EmacsLive (Sam Aaron's setup) and then Spacemacs in Holy Mode as a default, but I have to be honest the Spacemacs experience in eVil Mode is great for me - 20 years of Vi(m) use suddenly paying off, plus I love the Space(bar) menu which I have already got the hang of about 4 hours in.

maleghast10:08:31

It's not for everyone, but it fits me LIKE A GLOVE!

maleghast10:08:42

Also, I am very pro the Spacemacs consistency arguement - I no longer need to consider having custom .dotfiles approach, I can just grab Spacemacs and the layers I use and boom I am productive.

otfrom10:08:35

@alex.lynham and @rickmoynihan do you have your configs on github or similar?

otfrom10:08:15

(some changes since, but still the same structure)

alexlynham10:08:22

mine's just starter kit with some nicer fonts and a modeline, relative line numbers and a few utils

rickmoynihan10:08:25

+1 to use-package @otfrom: what’s interesting about your org-mode setup?

alexlynham10:08:53

had it working on my company laptop pretty presto this time around tbf

otfrom10:08:03

hmm... I suppose I don't really find it interesting at all. Possibly my use of use-package and the org-mode bits.

otfrom10:08:40

hopefully each of the snippets is pretty clear and independent so thus good for stealing by people (as long as they use use-package)

otfrom10:08:03

not even the org bits of it are needed. The code snippets could just go into init.el

alexlynham10:08:15

ha yours is about a million times neater than mine

alexlynham10:08:23

mine's string and duct tape by comparison

rickmoynihan10:08:49

@alex.lynham you need to move to use-package

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alexlynham10:08:14

is there a primer somewhere?

rickmoynihan10:08:33

@otfrom: FYI I discovered a new feature (or at least one I wasn’t aware of from when I last checked) of use-package which is that you can now do this https://github.com/otfrom/otfrom-org-emacs/blob/e5430524dc2672656ed41fd949a2f287ea8fbe41/init.el#L17 inside use-package declarations.

rickmoynihan10:08:15

e.g.

(use-package cider
  :ensure t
  :pin melpa-stable
  :diminish
  :config
 ,,,)

otfrom10:08:36

yeah, that pinned package bit has been around for a while, I just couldn't get it to work last time I gave it a go. I should try again (it was probably PEBCAK)

otfrom10:08:51

it would make things more modular and cohesive

alexlynham10:08:44

I think if I was using emacs everyday I would look at moving it over, for now I can't really justify it

rickmoynihan10:08:48

I only discovered it the other day, but have been using use-package for a long time, so wasn’t aware of it; but the migration was trivial and just worked.

otfrom10:08:55

IIRC, the problem was some packages were pulling in things from other repos as a part of their dependencies and bypassing my use-package pinning, So I did it at the top to prevent it.

otfrom10:08:50

but I didn't properly get to the bottom of it b/c my escape hatch worked and I had other things to do than shave that yak. 😉

otfrom10:08:55

one of my goals w/my emacs config is that I should be able to clone it before I start emacs and all the things should be downloaded on start up and everything should just work. And mostly it does.

rickmoynihan10:08:29

yeah use-package is great for that… no longer need to commit the elpa directory!

otfrom10:08:51

and I "test" it every once in a while by having a package change a macro signature and then I have to blow away my elpa, but that is just the joys of living in an image based world. 🙂

jasonbell10:08:34

I had to do some wrangling with Emacs 25.2, Cider and clj-refactor every update comes with it's own set of fun.

alexlynham10:08:19

I guess I have enough dependency issues with projects, I try to just stay away from it with my editor and keep things as stable as poss... but maybe that's just me excusing my own laziness

mccraigmccraig10:08:05

same. life is far too short

alexlynham11:08:30

high five to that

otfrom14:08:23

I've not had a problem yet that wasn't fixed by nuking my ~/.emacs.d/elpa

guy11:08:06

whats a daddy pig voice 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 :thinking_face:

thomas11:08:58

yes Peppa Pig... have a look on youtube...

thomas11:08:44

but only really relavent if you have small children

guy12:08:59

my kids watch peppa pig

guy12:08:14

the reference makes sense now 😅

thomas12:08:08

I feel for Daddy Pig... I kinda identify with him.

rhinocratic13:08:01

Think I feel a greater affinity with Major Clanger (FX: crestfallen swanee whistle).

practicalli_john14:08:57

Any feedback on my Spacemacs book is appreciated https://practicalli.github.io/spacemacs/ - still a work in progress.

manas_marthi15:08:54

What about people who lost the ability to remember short cut keys?

manas_marthi15:08:54

I was a vi user when I started. I was able to remember vi keys and linux commands and options in an instant

3Jane15:08:12

I don’t think you can ever remember shortcuts, you kind of have to get them in muscle memory

rickmoynihan07:08:44

Yeah I find that too. Weird stuff happens when you remember the combinations… e.g. Once when I was doing some numeric data entry task I entered a few numbers repeatedly on the numeric keypad and noticed by pure coincidence it happened to also be my debit card pin number. Then when I next went to purchase something my account got frozen, because my muscle memory had reversed for that number due to the opposite keyboard layouts on ATM keypads vs keyboard ones. Very weird, and embarrassing when your card gets frozen, and you’re swearing blind you’ve entered the right number! lol

manas_marthi15:08:31

nowadays I can't remember emacs bindings

3Jane15:08:41

sometimes when I try to remember what I press to get X or Y done, I get seriously stumped

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manas_marthi15:08:45

spacemacs keybindings are good and they are like the ms office shortcuts..

manas_marthi15:08:53

But I wish we have a proper eclipse IDE

manas_marthi15:08:31

Personally I am happy with spacemacs.. Feels easier than vanilla emacs

manas_marthi15:08:46

I recently found a Eclipse framework called XText

manas_marthi15:08:56

to write DSLs and generate Eclipse IDE plugins for the DSLs

manas_marthi15:08:05

It requires a ANTLR V3 grammar

manas_marthi15:08:29

I wish someone who knows those Compiler grammar give it a shot and create a simple Eclipse IDE

manas_marthi15:08:57

I started to read xtext book in safari to create a IDE for Pony lang.

manas_marthi15:08:14

But still struggling to convert Pony's ANTLR V3 grammar into XTEXT Grammar

manas_marthi15:08:53

Does Clojure have its own ANTLR Grammar?

manas_marthi15:08:36

PS: CCW-IDE proved to be unusable with Eclipse for Java EE. It has some known unsolved problems

danm15:08:21

Cursive is a proper Clojure IDE, and it has a channel on here. But it's not free

danm15:08:29

Unless you're a student/nonprofit

manas_marthi15:08:26

I have cursive IDE. The reason for looking for eclipse alternative is license cost to employers in adapting cursive

shan16:08:53

~$200 dollars per employee licence isn’t too bad if you think you’ll be more productive with it. I’m sure other costs make it pretty negligible.

guy16:08:21

thats true, but free is free

alexlynham16:08:05

free as in freedom babyyy

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agile_geek16:08:36

Not as in 'beer' then?

guy16:08:30

beer is never free 😭

alexlynham16:08:04

at meetups sometimes it is!

agile_geek16:08:21

@U08TUA46M you can have my beer .... unless it's GF of course... then deals off!

guy16:08:48

looool nah i try not to drink nowadays, unless its champagne 👌

guy16:08:02

Beer just equals more time in the gym 😞

3Jane16:08:05

CIDER man, only CIDER

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guy16:08:19

Cider was nice when i was younger now i find it so sweet

3Jane16:08:35

even Aspalls?

agile_geek16:08:40

I feel the shadow of Bug (Bozhidar) in this thread

guy16:08:48

Aspalls isnt bad true that

3Jane16:08:55

knowing nod

guy16:08:58

but its from where i grew up so its a bit meh for me

alexlynham07:08:15

llow cider, too sweet for me now for sure

😂 1
agile_geek16:08:59

Is Clockwise for Eclipse not still a thing?

maleghast16:08:59

Clockwise is no longer a thing, no. It's what became Cursive, IIRC

guy16:08:17

yeah i thought that was the case

bronsa16:08:28

cursive and ccw have no relation

guy16:08:33

cursive is nice tho

bronsa16:08:41

they're completely different codebases on different editors

bronsa16:08:48

but yeah ccw is dead

maleghast16:08:35

I thought that Cognitect originally gave some financial support to Clockwise and then the guy behind it suggested changing targets to IntelliJ and that the support for Clockwise "went away" and so it's died on the vine... I admit that I cobbled this theory together from heresay and rumour, but what I meant by Clockwise leading to Cursive was that I had thought the creator / writer / developer was the same person and that Cursive came out of the "lessons learned" on Clockwise...?

bronsa16:08:00

no they're completely independent projects lead by different authors

bronsa16:08:12

it's just a coincidence that cognitect originally sponsored ccw and later sponsored cursive

minimal16:08:32

ccw guy is French, cursive guy is from New Zealand

agile_geek17:08:29

I thought they were unrelated as ccw was always on Eclipse and Cursive on Idea (IntelliJ)

manas_marthi20:08:28

ccw ide was developed by Laurent Petit. He is in clojure slack channel. I saw the github repo and the issues in it. The main reason for ccw-ide to die seems to be a known issue that causes eclipse crashes..