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#clojure-uk
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2018-06-18
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thomas07:06:33

mogge 😼

manas_marthi08:06:00

we have a papers we love meet up in belfast, I joined it last week. Thanks to the group, I am finally reading SICP

manas_marthi08:06:46

beautiful book. if they had taught that in college..

manas_marthi08:06:59

I see people try to compare clojure with elixir

manas_marthi08:06:29

not sure why the talk is not about clojure vs python or typescript

sundarj09:06:54

surely the reason is that both python and typescript are not functional languages; are not expression-based; are not extensible; and so forth. plus typescript is, naturally, statically typed, whereas clojure is not. compared to clojure's statically typed peers (haskell, f#, ocaml), its type system is weaker also

manas_marthi08:06:56

somebody asked should they use clojure in the clojure channel.

manas_marthi08:06:30

not sure what answer than yes they were expecting in this community.

thomas08:06:40

@manas.marthi well... the answer is of course.... it depends πŸ˜‰

manas_marthi08:06:21

that's what I said, but upon insisting, I said use clojure

thomas08:06:21

there are plenty of things I would strongly suggest NOT to use clojure.

thomas08:06:19

real time systems... embedded controllers...

thomas08:06:39

fly-by-wire systems for aeroplanes.

guy08:06:14

Morning!

guy08:06:52

Btw is there a euroclojure this year?

guy08:06:57

Anyone know?

thomas08:06:12

btw I think there is a real-time JVM from Oracle (IBM used to have one, not sure if they do anymore though). But I don't know if how well they work

thomas08:06:16

@guy no... not this year

thomas08:06:25

have a look in #euroclojure

guy08:06:16

ah ok thanks @thomas

peterwestmacott08:06:02

Morning everyone!

πŸ‘‹ 1
peterwestmacott08:06:26

Just back from paternity leave to see that I’ve missed a thread on offal-based dad jokes!

guy08:06:38

please nooooooo

guy08:06:45

no more i beg of you

guy08:06:59

I could only take so much dad jokes 😭

peterwestmacott08:06:18

But everybody likes a good pun, no?

guy08:06:22

its true

otfrom09:06:17

it depends on the de-liver-y

πŸ˜‚ 2
peterwestmacott09:06:02

Coming up with good puns entrails a lot of work.

otfrom09:06:54

the bad lungs can be lacking in heart though

peterwestmacott09:06:40

If at first you don’t succeed, tripe, tripe again.

peterwestmacott09:06:51

Mind you, I told a group of my co-workers almost a dozen puns the other day thinking that at least one would make them laugh, but no pun in ten did.

mccraigmccraig10:06:37

i haven't got the heart to vent any more spleen over these tongue-in-cheek puns, i think i should just hoof it on out of this thread

😍 1
guy10:06:39

😬 πŸ˜‚

korny11:06:40

I can’t stomach any more

πŸ˜… 1
otfrom12:06:22

I think I've run out of brains to keep up

🧠 1
peterwestmacott08:06:40

The sacrifice was worth it though.

πŸ‘ 1
guy08:06:12

How did you find paternity leave?

peterwestmacott08:06:36

I didn’t get nearly as much done as I’d hoped!

😭 1
peterwestmacott08:06:55

But it was lovely to spend time with my recently enlarged family.

πŸ‘ 1
guy08:06:05

Yeah i bet 😊 Babies are great

peterwestmacott08:06:18

Some of the time, yes.

guy08:06:24

hahaaaa very true

peterwestmacott08:06:40

In this case, she’s a very chilled baby - which is exactly what we were hoping for.

peterwestmacott08:06:01

That always seems far more important than what everyone else wants to know - is it a boy or a girl?

thomas08:06:17

@peterwestmacott I thought you could get up to 2 weeks in the UK

guy08:06:38

You can get a split i think? My friend got 2 months but took 2 months from his wife

peterwestmacott08:06:41

I got two weeks and took a week’s holiday too.

πŸ‘ 2
peterwestmacott08:06:21

I’m WFH today though, so we’ll see how it goes.

πŸ‘ 1
guy08:06:21

Is she your first?

peterwestmacott09:06:59

Third and (hopefully) final.

πŸ˜‚ 1
guy09:06:31

ahh awesome πŸ˜„

guy09:06:50

I'm at two myself and have a similar sentiment

guy08:06:34

Massive congratulations btw!

πŸ‘ 1
practicalli-john08:06:55

London Clojurian event this evening - very interesting talks on introducing Clojure for work as well as using Clojure for managing important life events. https://www.meetup.com/London-Clojurians/events/rpbqcpyxjbhb/

Aleksander09:06:28

Morning everyone!

πŸ‘‹ 1
danm09:06:28

Morning

πŸ‘‹ 1
manas_marthi09:06:10

@jr0cket will the meet up be streamed

practicalli-john13:06:41

@manas.marthi No live streaming of talks, but they will be recorded and should be available in less that a weeks time. You can also find previously recorded talks in our https://skillsmatter.com/groups/87-london-clojure-community#past_events

manas_marthi14:06:34

Noted. thank you!

mccraigmccraig10:06:43

congratulations @peterwestmacott and welcome to the sleep-deprivation appreciation society

πŸ˜‚ 1
mccraigmccraig10:06:53

oh, i see you've been a member for a while 😬

πŸ˜„ 1
peterwestmacott12:06:03

Yeah, almost 6 years now.

mccraigmccraig12:06:57

i'm just out the other side, and now i can use my sleep-deprivation induced superpowers for good

korny11:06:18

yeah - you should get 2 weeks paternity leave, then you can split the maternity leave with your partner (if they are getting maternity leave!) - but it’s paid at the lovely (low) mandated maternity leave rate. Unless you have an employer that boosts it above the minimum.

maleghast11:06:45

Morning All!

practicalli-john13:06:16

If we have Karsten Schmidt as a speaker at one of our events in London, what would you like them to talk about? Here is there twitter if you are not familiar with them: https://twitter.com/toxi

maleghast13:06:46

@jr0cket - I would love to hear Karsten on: 1) data visualisation in ClojureScript 2) Data Science in Clojure 3) 3D rendering in Clojure / ClojureScript or pretty much anything that he wants to talk about as long as he'll do a break-out session on th.ing at some point during or before the Conference πŸ˜‰

πŸ‘ 1
maleghast13:06:44

Does anyone know how much Clojure Conj tickets were last year?

maleghast13:06:10

(not announced pricing this year, just a date to save, but I am negotiating with my COO...)

maleghast14:06:14

@mccraigmccraig - What is freaking you out..?

maleghast14:06:43

(I like Ops a lot, woulda been a sysadmin if programming hadn't grabbed me)

mccraigmccraig14:06:14

this freakout was about decommissioning a bunch of nodes from our live production cassandra cluster

🍩 3
maleghast14:06:45

Oh, yeah, ok, I can see that being a nail-biter, no matter how much preparation and precaution was involved...

maleghast14:06:49

All go well in the end?

mccraigmccraig14:06:36

yeah, all went totally fine... but given the potential for knackering everything, i don't think it could ever be anything less than terrifying

thomas14:06:55

@mccraigmccraig just never turn anything off... πŸ˜‰

thomas14:06:15

let them just fade away...

1
maleghast14:06:20

@mccraigmccraig - Well I am glad it went well, I suppose I now know what I am not going to do, and that is build a Cassandra cluster... πŸ˜‰

mccraigmccraig14:06:28

@thomas not turning off a bunch of m4.2xlarges does get a bit expensive!

mccraigmccraig14:06:56

@maleghast well, on the upside it is quite possible to reconfigure the cluster, add nodes, remove nodes, restart everything, all with zero downtime

maleghast14:06:17

Yes, so flexible, but nerve-wrackingly so πŸ˜‰

mccraigmccraig14:06:04

yep. ops is terrifying!

maleghast14:06:15

I like RDS (I realise that there are downsides to RDBMS, but having the service-provision be someone else's problem is compelling)

mccraigmccraig14:06:08

if there was a cassandra RDS i would probably use it... i've used RDS for postgresql before and been very happy with it

maleghast14:06:36

Yeah, I ❀️ it for PostgreSQL

maleghast14:06:48

Is there a short answer to why you chose Cassandra..?

mccraigmccraig14:06:21

yep - a combination of [1] an excellent resilience story and [2] that cassandra forces you to not do things which don't scale well, by virtue of not implementing any db features which don't scale well

korny14:06:31

Cassandra is terrifying all by itself πŸ™‚

korny14:06:49

I had a client that wanted Cassandra on a project from day 1 - I tried strongly to suggest they build iteration 1 with PostgreSQL, get it working, then see if they really needed cassandra after that. No luck. (I rolled off before the cassandra implementation was working, so who knows - maybe it was fine? 🀷 )

otfrom15:06:52

c* is just a different way of thinking really. Once you've had your head broken by it I'm not sure it is any trickier (esp if you think in terms of events or time series)

manas_marthi15:06:09

c* = cassandra?

otfrom15:06:03

depends on what problem you are trying to solve

mccraigmccraig15:06:20

yep, it's just different. you get some significant restrictions and some amazing superpowers in return, and it takes a while to grok what the differences are and what the consequences of the differences are

maleghast15:06:25

OK, I will have to look into it further to see if the "superpowers" are stuff I want and that the restrictions are liveable in return.

otfrom15:06:20

my problem with postgres (which I think is great btw) is that people treat it like mutable state and don't think about events in their system, but then I tend to build things from events that exist or create events b/c I want auditability and other derived bits of data

maleghast15:06:39

@otfrom - I can see that... My general feeling is that I am going to use Datomic for the "domain" data in our system, so that I get auditability / immutable history from that, but I am putting a lot of value-data (i.e. data that will NEVER have an UPDATE query run against it) into PostgreSQL for ease-of-use and because the Data Science team (such as it is at the moment) are all R-speakers who go funny colours when I talk about Clojure.

maleghast15:06:13

So bulk data that they only read goes in PostgreSQL 'cos they understand how to read it from there.

otfrom15:06:51

@maleghast that makes sense given your users

maleghast15:06:55

I am, as yet, unsure how to handle their outputs so that there is an audit trail and no update-in-place shenanigans, but I have ideas...

otfrom15:06:00

repeatable data science is hard w/people who create production code for a living. It is well nigh impossible with people who hack out R scripts (R is awesome. Lots of R practice isn't)

maleghast15:06:44

Yeah... I am pleased to say that the Head of the department would agree with you and wants to limit R use to exploration and prototyping. He wants to make it a core practice of the team that production code is implemented in Python, under much more rigorous coding / programming approaches.

πŸ‘ 1
maleghast15:06:00

I am in full support of this, if I can't get him to use Clojure / Incanter.

maleghast15:06:16

I do intend to try and get him excited about Clojure and see what happens... πŸ˜‰

maleghast15:06:53

Anyway, my intention in the first instance is to just insist that every time they run a model the outputs have to be written to a new record, either in a bulk / de-normalised table, so that it is easily converted into an immutable data structure and there is no update-in-place only writing new rows, or as a new JSONB document using PostgreSQL's JSON / Document handling features. As long as the practice is drummed into them that they only ever write new records, and that previous results are effectively permanent I reckon I have a shot at keeping things sane in terms of managing the data we generate as well as the data we take in.

maleghast15:06:07

Of course, it's not going to be as easy as all that, but I can dream...

otfrom16:06:08

what would you call the f that goes into swap! reduce core.async/reduce and alter?

otfrom16:06:21

a function that take the current value and then 1-n others, but often just the current value and a new value.

otfrom16:06:06

possibly, just annoying that there is already a function called update

otfrom16:06:38

I think I mean more in discussion w/other coders rather than in the code. Tho it would be nice to have them be both the same.

bronsa16:06:50

step functions?

seancorfield19:06:28

Anyone watching the match? πŸ™‚

cddr22:06:11

I guess that's a yes @seancorfield lol

seancorfield22:06:20

Bit surprised at the lack of responses there πŸ™‚ since it was on at a reasonable UK time...

seancorfield22:06:15

...and I figured there must be some footie fans here? ⚽